RavenX

Join Date 10/2008

+194

You Need to Re-Think Your Decision on Race Customization (Here's Why)

You don't want Static Factions

I really think there's a Big Aspect of this the Player Base hasn't thought of. First though, a quote from Frogboy...

Quoting Frogboy,

reply 44

Quoting Raven X,
reply 17
Hmm, should have seen where this post would head when you made it, Frogboy. You scared everyone. Now they think if you add more Race Customization all the storyline and everything you have NOW is just going to disappear..

I'm seeing that as well. People tend to quickly go into black or white.

There's no scenario where we're going to drop our factions and our lore.

The question is what level of complexity should be introduced. Do we have Factions AND Races that are distinct or do we simplify and simply talk about factions.

The lore is going to be there regardless.

But from these two threads I've seen people jump in and say "Oh, so it's just going to be generic factions." We'd have to rip stuff out to do that and we're not about to do that.

Frogboy, admittedly, said he was biased on his idea but he still wanted to breach the subject. Without meaning too though, he scared a lot of people and a Lot more people got the wrong idea because they aren't seeing the big picture when it comes to the Races and Factions. We all want fleshed out, in depth, story driven factions. All Of Us want that, me included. What is really going to flesh out those factions Will Not Be The Backstory. That's just fluff no matter what way you look at it. It has No Baring On Gameplay. It's only there to give you background information and to help suspend belief and add immersion.

What Will Affect Gameplay is the bonuses and negatives these "factions" receive. None us want just plain old bonuses and minuses, that's not In Depth factions. That's the same old, same old, that All These Games have. The idea Frogboy has about tying these races to other bonuses based on the land will help flesh this out more. Example: The race/faction that likes the desert will get a bonus for building there while the race/faction that likes the ocean will get bonuses for building near water. Both of those will get minuses for building on land that they don't know much about or is too opposite compared to what they normally build on. That is tied to the backstory for each faction.

These are STATIC FACTIONS. You can't change them without knowing how to Mod the AI or the Code that tells them how to react. Also once you tie in modifiers that make races/factions instinctively like or dislike each other you make it even MORE STATIC. This might be fun and "fleshed out" at first, but it won't stay that way for long. Once the player knows how Tarth plays and how they interact with the other factions they play someone else. Now Tarth is completely predictable. Every time they play they'll build in the same places, they'll always dislike certain other factions/races, ALWAYS, and that won't be changeable without knowing how to Mod Code and that's normally a Lot Harder then modding how something looks or what bonuses or minuses they have. Once you learn how all the factions/races interact with each other EVERY GAME BECOMES THE SAME. Sure the map might be different, but once you put opponents on it you'll know how they'll get along, who will ally with who, who will go to war with who....Every Game because they are STATIC because of Fluff Story Reasons.

Does that Really Sound Fun? REALLY? Not to me it doesn't. It will be awesome at first of course, but once you learn the system it becomes the same old game on a different map every time you play...

Now lets throw in the Race Customizations that Frogboy discussed. Because you can make your own Sovereign's and Factions this means you can make your Own Opponents to fight against. With Race Customization you can make Races as well, as many as you want. These Races can have a whole bunch of different bonuses and penalties that you can change every time you make a race. Because these races are self made you decide how they react to other races. You decide what kind of AI will govern their diplomacy. You decide what kinds of lands they like and dislike. Now, every time you want the game to different you make a new race or delete a old one. Now there's a Unknown Element on the field. A New Race/Faction that you don't know if they'll hate you or if they'll like you. You may not how they'll react when they meet another race you made. These are NOT STATIC because you can create or destroy them at will, all WITHOUT KNOWING HOW TO MOD OR EDIT SCRIPTS!!!!

The most fun I've ever had with strategy games were the ones with lots of variables. The ones that played differently every time I played them because I never knew how my opponents would react. The very best challenges I ever had came from enemies I created. My own personal Mod for Gal Civ 2 has a whole slew of alien races I fight against. I even custom made their ships. I fight the Borg and the Federation and the Klingons and the Asgard and the Wraith. Some times the Wraith hate the Borg, other times they get along and team up and own everyone.

I want Elemental to be like that. I want it to be a little random when I play and Not The Same. I don't want to be able to predict how a game will play out before I play it because I already know how all the factions will interact with each other. No matter who I play as I'll always have the same evil allies or the same good allies and they'll in turn hate or like the same people they always hate or like.

Please, Everyone, put a little more thought into this and maybe re-think your choice. Let's make Elemental Special. A game where we can change what we want If We Chose To, or not if we don't. A Game where we can have the heavy rich story elements and fleshed out factions/races AND be able to custom make new ones and make them look and feel the way We Want...WIHOUT HAVING TO LEARN A MODDING LANGUAGE.

Let's face it, as soon as you get tired of playing the game and you know how all the factions play out you're going to put away the game and move on. You aren't going to learn how to write computer code just so you can make a new enemy or two. If it's built into the game already it's a Lot Easier to do.

Please.....just think.

elemental

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the Gorgon

Wintersong

Join Date 07/2006

+235

Isn't people complaining that they want Static first and dynamic in expanion packs (modders better because they are free)?

Also, if you create the race... aren't you knowing how it's going to behave? (I gave it Terran Diplomacy AI mixed with some Dregin war attitude...)

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Just because races have personality traits and such doesn't mean they have to act the same every game. Every human player has a style they generally play with, but obviously humans can be very unpredictable. With the way Brad has talked about the AI, I would expect similar from them, obviously not human like, but not completely predicable like many games.

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Disagree heavily.

I always used the stock races in GalCiv2 and had lots of fun playing against them. I always had a soft spot for Lord Kona and in almost every game I tried to kill him and conquer his planets, since that evil Drengin annihilated me in one of my first games.

Consistent and good stock races make interesting enemies and allow you to feel a connection to them, making them more then just random race nr. 23 with +20% to attack. I want to fight against factions and sovereigns with a good and interesting lore behind them that also act upon it.

Please.....just think.

#@§% you too.

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Raven, this is a good post, and this is something, what is worth to discuss. I understand that what are you saying, and I still say that we need to have these static factions. First of all, it's part of the game lore. Each factions should play differently, in a unique way. That is fun. Sure it's predictable, but it's not a big problem. If you randomize them, you will figure out that how they gonna play later on anyways.

Also, the AI will be more challenging with having static factions....I guess so at least.

What do you think about this Raven?

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Quoting Wintersong,

reply 1

Isn't people complaining that they want Static first and dynamic in expansion packs (modders better because they are free)?

Also, if you create the race... aren't you knowing how it's going to behave? (I gave it Terran Diplomacy AI mixed with some Dregin war attitude...)

Gal Civ 2 had a different style of story and gameplay then Elemental. Even in Gal Civ 2 though, some races that hated each other Always hated each other. By giving a custom race the Dregin War Attitude you kept how other diplomacy AI's would react to that, but Not to them being "Dregin" which would change the way other races saw them. Races that hated the Dregin might not hate your race, they aren't Dregin, though they might not like the war aspect. Races and Factions are much Tightly Tied Together in Elemental then they ever were in Gal Civ 2.

Quoting Myles,

reply 2

I disagree. I played GalCiv2, and still do sometimes, using the normal races. They act the same from game to game(as they should since they're supposed to have unique personalities) but the games are never the same. I rarely create my own faction or factions to fight against and would much prefer very well fleshed out cannon faction and a limited 'faction maker' rather than the other way around.

Just because races have personality traits and such doesn't mean they have to act the same every game. Every human player has a style they generally play with, but obviously humans can be very unpredictable. With the way Brad has talked about the AI, I would expect similar from them, obviously not human like, but not completely predicable like many games.

Whether you pay close attention to it or not there are Always some aspects of those games that will Always play out the same. See my response to Wintersong above for a example. Also, how often is "and still do sometimes" exactly?

The examples I'm talking about and the racial customizations Frogboy originally mentioned will keep people playing Elemental A Lot more then sometimes in my opinion. I play my custom game of Gal Civ 2 any time I get the itch for a Space Strategy game. It covers all my needs and then some....mostly because of the work I put into it. Had I bought Gal Civ 2 earlier I would have got into modding it heavily and stayed active on the forums for it, keeping the game alive for a very long time.

The majority of the people who adding these features into the game for would be the ones keeping Elemental alive six months to a year down the road and longer. Look at Masters of Magic. It has a Huge following and most likely always will. How much bigger of a following would of it had if it had been updatable and easy to change and make new content for? How much more money would it have made and how much of a impact would that of had on strategy gaming as a whole? A Lot I think. Sadly MoM couldn't do all those things. Elemental Does Do All Those things however.

The more customization they put in the easier it will be for people to change things as they want. Eventually people will get tired of the storyline no matter how good it is. How many people play the same Final Fantasy over and over and over again? None (or very few). They play it enough times to see the different endings and variations of the ending, then they wait a few years and buy the sequel that tells a New Story.

Every time someone creates their own faction/race they create a new part of their own story. The easier it is for people to do that the longer the game will be around.

What if in a worst case scenario Elemental bombs on the market? Do you think they'll bother making 3 expansions and adding tons of content and customization for a game that didn't make any money? No, they won't. They'll move on to the next IP and hope they do better. Gal Civ 1 & 2 both made a lot of money and had a big following, so they made expansions and made more money. Why did Gal Civ 2 do so well? People didn't buy it for it's groundbreaking story. I don't know about everyone else but I bought it because I read a review that talked about how easy (and cool) it was to design my own ships. If I had wanted to play another space strategy game where I couldn't change how my ships looked I would have played Moo2 and Moo3 and not bought a new game.

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Quoting Vandenburg,

reply 3

Please.....just think.

#@§% you too.

Jeez dude, that was a little uncalled for

That's not how I meant "Please.....just think."...at all. I just meant people should take some time to see the big picture instead of thinking because there will be customization there Won't Be deep standard Factions. The standard factions will be deep enough to drowned a elephant. Hell there's already books about them..lol.

Chillax man

Quoting Tormy-,

reply 4

There can be a "happy middle ground" to the whole thing really. Obviously no-one wants custom factions to replace the Story Factions and that's not the plan. There's no reason why "basic" customization shouldn't be included though as long as there is time.

Note: also, if you look at any positive review of Gal Civ 2, almost everyone gives at least a nod to the custom ship maker and says how much re-playability it adds to the game. Customization is one of things Stardock is known for in their games. It's why I started playing them in the first place.

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I read your post and there are some points I would like to say.

I don't want to spend a long time "making" my enemies when I first start the game. I'd rather just hit play and be in the game after a cursory build-my-own-sov. Obviously there is a need for default races you can just click and drop.

In your post, you say that every game will be the same if there are default factions. Later, you say that in GalCiv, the factions you created, the Borg and the Wraiths, sometimes fight each other and sometimes don't. I would like to know if you changed something about the race between playing these games. It would seem to me that the AI would make the choice whether to go to war on not depending on whether it's in their interest, not whether they like each other or not. If your custom factions are dynamic and sometimes go to war and sometimes don't, then it follows that the default factions would also capable of being dynamic.

In one comment, you have derided having specific numeric bonuses to things as being too simplistic as differences to factions. How is it you would suggest that randomized NPC factions, or even player designed ones, have bonuses that aren't "numerical?" Would you suggest they each have a tech tree? How would the AI know to navigate a player-made tech tree? How would a player create an in-depth tech tree without working with the XML? How much work is a player expected to put into making his own custom enemies balanced before he could have a fair game?

Obviously there needs to be default factions available in a game. And there's no reason those factions/races can't have the same backstory from the lore. It would be cool if you could create your own enemy factions, yes, but the two don't have to be exclusive. It's just a change to the UI to make a larger list you can select from, and be able to select custom-made factions from the list of already available ones.

Quoting ,

quoting post

To the player, it doesn't matter what the enemies are. Are they sentient brocolli descended from the Rivencrack of Auberon? Doesn't matter, they are my enemy. Are they hyperstrong bear-men from the west? Doesn't matter, still my enemy.

A player that doesn't care about lore, or doesn't care to take the time to understand it, is not negatively impacted by the lore being in the game. In a war/action hero movie you don't need to understand that Nazi Germany was at war with Communist Russia to understand that the bad guy is who the Hero is fighting.

Those with the historical prespective to understand that no, Prussia is not a misprounounciation of Russia will appreciate that you take the effort, but it won't turn off people who don't care. So long as you aren't hitting them over the head about it.

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Quoting Raven X,

reply 6

I think it's quite possible to have fully fleshed out standard factions with deep lore, like has been the plan all along, plus have the sweet ability to custom make some other races without having to Mod them in with a bunch of hard work and importing models and everything that goes along with it. The AI will only be one file anyway. What will change from faction to faction will be how those factions play and what the AI does with what each faction can do. I'm no AI coding expert like Frogboy, but basically it works something like that.

There can be a "happy middle ground" to the whole thing really. Obviously no-one wants custom factions to replace the Story Factions and that's not the plan. There's no reason why "basic" customization shouldn't be included though as long as there is time.

Yeah this could work.

Quoting Raven X,

reply 6

Yes I know. Basically you are talking about a "Spore type" creature creator for Elemental. It would be awesome to have a built-in creator like that of course....but it won't happen...probably ever, but who knows.

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Quoting TCores,

reply 7

1. I don't want to spend a long time "making" my enemies when I first start the game. I'd rather just hit play and be in the game after a cursory build-my-own-sov. Obviously there is a need for default races you can just click and drop.

2. In your post, you say that every game will be the same if there are default factions. Later, you say that in GalCiv, the factions you created, the Borg and the Wraiths, sometimes fight each other and sometimes don't. I would like to know if you changed something about the race between playing these games. It would seem to me that the AI would make the choice whether to go to war on not depending on whether it's in their interest, not whether they like each other or not. If your custom factions are dynamic and sometimes go to war and sometimes don't, then it follows that the default factions would also capable of being dynamic.

3. In one comment, you have derided having specific numeric bonuses to things as being too simplistic as differences to factions. How is it you would suggest that randomized NPC factions, or even player designed ones, have bonuses that aren't "numerical?" Would you suggest they each have a tech tree? How would the AI know to navigate a player-made tech tree? How would a player create an in-depth tech tree without working with the XML? How much work is a player expected to put into making his own custom enemies balanced before he could have a fair game?

4. Obviously there needs to be default factions available in a game. And there's no reason those factions/races can't have the same backstory from the lore. It would be cool if you could create your own enemy factions, yes, but the two don't have to be exclusive. It's just a change to the UI to make a larger list you can select from, and be able to select custom-made factions from the list of already available ones.

Firstly, TCores, thank you for the well thought out reply. I broke it down into 1-4 to make it easy for me to answer. Here goes.

1 A. The default races will still be there. They aren't going anywhere. As Frogboy stated in reply to me which I quoted at the beginning of this thread they would have to Remove content they already have and they Won't do that, nor should they.

2 A. No, I didn't change anything. What made it different was there weren't any predefined racial hatreds or likes between any of them. They went by strictly numerical values as defined by the AI. More or less who liked who depended on who was doing better in the game (had more planets, better military etc etc) which was randomized by where they started on the map and how well they did grabbing resources. From a strictly "racial" perspective they had no opinion of each other other then if I purposefully gave them traits that didn't get along.

3 A. Either way you boil it down it comes down to a numerical value. There's no other way to do it. I'm not saying that's not the way to go, just don't rely on just one system which Frogboy has already hinted at they won't. Other numerical systems will have to be in play, like racial bonuses tied to land types, placement on the map, etc etc a lot of factors really. I didn't mean for it to sound like numerical values were bad.

4 A. See reply 1 A and Frogboys statement at the top of the thread. The backstory isn't going anywhere nor are the races or factions that have been built so far. That's all staying the same.

Quoting Tormy-,

reply 8

Not really a "Spore" system exactly no. But for instance if they were to incorporate what Frogboy said about "making Dragon-Men" they will include some limited way to change how races look which they have in part already (making your skin blue, change the clothes, etc etc). Whatever system Frogboy had in mind for it already would be the way to go. No-one's saying it needs to be overly complicated. Just "add wings" or "add tail", some more exotic aspects of things that they already have implimented.

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Quoting TCores,

reply 7

I'm not sure what you're getting at here, except for asking for a "build your own enemies" tool, which is sort of reasonable, but to achieve the best results, custom factions will always require hard work in the form of original modeling and scripting.

Actually I'm not even asking for a build your own enemies tool, you can already do that. When it asks you to "add a faction" and you add your own faction you can add in the factions you play against including the factions you make. Just subtract one of the standard factions and add one you made. It's pretty easy.

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Personally, I think the issue was that Draginol did not specify where they are at concerning the Fallen Faction at this point but did note that, they will STOP, now and add more customization to allow the Players to get involved after the fact.

We started this adventure with 12 Races across 2 Faction. Then we went to 10, (nice even #) 5 for each.

Now we read, perhaps incorrectly and totally between the lines, that it will/may be reduced again. Conjecture for sure but the ambiguity of the original Post left much to the imagination.

So, Raven X, as you so eloquently noted, many, perhaps, over reacted. But if the Dev have made what appear to be a major decision (# of Races to be in the Box) based on a Poll, that would require a minimum 4 months in an "Incubator" to even have a chance at a basis in reality, that the # of Fallen races might be reduced to as some yet undisclosed #, why not disclose it. The outcry certainly couldn't be any worse.

Hell, caveat the # to allow wiggle room to offset any otherwise unwarranted panic from the Beta group as a whole.

I believe, form reading the OP, that the Dev see a chance to increase an area of the base game play, through customization, that was perhaps a bit iffy, schedule wise, before. Kudo's and I can't see an issue other than what I added to that thread myself.

If the Dev can provide, as you noted, a customization feature that fulfills ALL aspects of game play available to the Dev created Races, various AI's to choose from included, E:WoM will indeed be the 4X/RTS hybrid of the future bar none.

All that remains now. Is that actually doable, even given the excellent team that will make the attempt?

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Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2420

A lot of my angst with some of the journal comments is that people seem to find the concept of interaction with game designers so alien that they don't realize that we're soliciting their opinions.

For instance, there are no "decisions" being made presently. We're just brainstorming with the group. But suddenly players think we've somehow switched course.

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Wintersong

Join Date 07/2006

+235

The brainstorming phase involves not to be able to comment on other people's ideas no matter how good or ridiculous they are. Yes, I use it incorrectly very often too.

Quoting Frogboy,

reply 12

my angst

Hehe. Emo Frogboy.

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Like Raven said, none of us want simple bonuses or weaknesses. IMO, Each faction NEEDS some amount of unique buildings, items (including armor, weapons), magic, units, unit abilities, graphics.

Factions need to play differently from other factions.

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Quoting Raven X,

reply 9

Quoting Tormy-,
reply 8

Yes I know. Basically you are talking about a "Spore type" creature creator for Elemental. It would be awesome to have a built-in creator like that of course....but it won't happen...probably ever, but who knows.

Not really a "Spore" system exactly no. But for instance if they were to incorporate what Frogboy said about "making Dragon-Men" they will include some limited way to change how races look which they have in part already (making your skin blue, change the clothes, etc etc). Whatever system Frogboy had in mind for it already would be the way to go. No-one's saying it needs to be overly complicated. Just "add wings" or "add tail", some more exotic aspects of things that they already have implimented.

I see...well maybe we will end up having some customization options like that later on. Basically this stuff belongs to the animation system, and it's decent enough as we know [Havok 7].

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 12

A lot of my angst with some of the journal comments is that people seem to find the concept of interaction with game designers so alien that they don't realize that we're soliciting their opinions.

For instance, there are no "decisions" being made presently. We're just brainstorming with the group. But suddenly players think we've somehow switched course.

LOL Frogboy, the reason they find it so alien is it is. This beta alone has sold me on almost every future stardock Product. Being 34 years old and having played games since the C64 days of buck rodgers I have never ever seen a development company this in touch with its fan base. I am flabbergasted about how much our input not only seems to be wanted but actually valued and incorporated.

I would have to say almost anyone new to Stardock forums like myself (not sure if it was this way in Sins or GC) it is a bit of a suprise and something that takes time to acclimitize to. You ever been to a Blizzard forum. Jesus I won't even venture into them anymore. Whiny Fanbase that attacks every change. A development team that has what seems like no people skills whatsoever (With a few noticable exception). And a company attitude that comes off as dismissive at best. Yet in fairness I love WoW, SC, and Diablo and they are all top buys for me. They can really make a game. But that kind of atmosphere is what most people expect sadly.

Hopefully the trolliness that comes over from other games will go away in a while

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 12

I know there isn't. I didn't mean the Dev's decisions, I was refering to everyone's replies in the threads and what they based those on. Your post that whigged everyone out

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"What is really going to flesh out those factions Will Not Be The Backstory."

Great post Raven!

It seems several threads are completely mixing this up ... I hope we don't end up with a trilogy of novels and a bad game.

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I still don't get all the angst.

Is anyone saying they don't think that customization should be incorporated? Not that I've seen.

What I see are a lot of people who think that customization (and I'm meaning the kind that modders will do, not the kind you would do in a setup screen) can and should wait a bit, until the important stuff, which we all seem to agree is the game play, has been better developed/improved/polished...

The fear (though I don't share it wrt Elemental) is that if the game is built primarily for customization, the devs get 'lazy' and figure the modders will figure it out, so lets just give them something. The problem with that should be obvious. The casual player will try the game and think 'what a piece of unfinished #@$#'. No matter what the modders wind up doing with the game, it has probably failed.

I still don't really see the tradeoff that Brad seems interested in having discussed though. It seems to be merely a matter of timing when the modders will get all their goodies in the state they want them in.

In any case, you've gotten your opinions Brad, even if the form they arrived in wasn't entirely what you were expecting. there are two groups. Group A wants to have full modding available immediately. Group B wants to have the vanilla game as rich and full of options and choices and fun as possible.

Those groups are not actually exclusive, which is why I struggle to understand the question as you posed it, and why everyone seems so stirred up over this. But hey, maybe Brad just thought the forum was getting too stolid.

Next point of conversation? How many colors should we make dragons and should we allow for multicolored dragons?

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there are two groups. Group A wants to have full modding available immediately. Group B wants to have the vanilla game as rich and full of options and choices and fun as possible.

Eh, no, please pay some attention to the words you actually write. We are not talking about modding at all here, we are talking about in game customization, which is completely different.

Group A wants to have full options to customize the game into their own types of sandboxes/campaigns available from the start (and not kept until an uncertain expansion that might never see the light of day). Group B wants instead to place more emphasis on having more artwork and lore for the pre-made 10 factions.

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I agree 100% Raven X as I stated in the original dev journal that created this mini-fire storm I'd like to see a ratio of Canon(green arrow) vs non-canon(red arrow) focus about like this.

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Quoting the Gorgon,

reply 20

there are two groups. Group A wants to have full modding available immediately. Group B wants to have the vanilla game as rich and full of options and choices and fun as possible.
Eh, no, please pay some attention to the words you actually write. We are not talking about modding at all here, we are talking about in game customization, which is completely different.

Group A wants to have full options to customize the game into their own types of sandboxes/campaigns available from the start (and not kept until an uncertain expansion that might never see the light of day). Group B wants instead to place more emphasis on having more artwork and lore for the pre-made 10 factions.

I don't think so, but at this point it seems no is quite sure.

Your group A already is going to have that in my opinion so I don't see the contention you are raising with me at least.

If this isn't about extra junk for the modders then the question is completely without merit in my opinion.

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psychoak

Join Date 07/2007

+225

I'm having a hard time following that grouping. I ditched Civ4 completely, for FFH2. I ditched it because the vanilla races blow. There's little of interest to them after you've played a few times through. The leaders behave a little differently, generally leading to them being neutered or dangerous, but other than that you're not seeing much new.

FFH2 replaced vanilla because there wasn't anything there. Race mods aren't much use when the races suck to begin with, so I never bothered with such things. Adding elves doesn't require bland factions, it requires good factions. You can't build off a crappy foundation and get anything but crap. You have to rebuild it from the bottom up in such a case.

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Quoting Frogboy,

reply 12

This is a true confession of someone who obviously cares. Thanks Frogboy. The only comment I can make is that any solicitation of opinions from a Group numbering more than 1 will always result in the assumption of some decision, at a higher level. is, or will shortly, be made. That assumption is based on the fact that if the Forum splits 50-50 that leaves the Dev no choice but to decide.

Given your much appreciated 3rd attempt to explain the whole "add Content vs add Customization" thread and its obvious contentionious nature, I guess angst would be an easy offshoot.

I would ask that you not give up on us. We can provide what you seek in opinions but invariably will not always see the "window" that opens to apply a properly prosed opinion. Many often see themselves as seemingly fighting against the louder crowd who make sure they are heard, regardless of proper conetx at the time.

As a personal note. I would very much like to think that at the end of this whole process, I could write the Post-Mortem of E:WoM after it gets its much deserved critical acclaim due to a true insight when that time comes. So far, that is an actual possibility.

I hope I didn't miss the point.

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Raven X, you can't tell me that any race you made would be half as deep or fun to play against as one of the original GalCiv 2 races, i play this game a lot usually making my own human race with its own lore which frankly isn't half as good as the original lore that went with the terran alliance, i just preffer a terran empire.

Whenever i made a race to play agaisnt the AI had no clue how to use it diplomacy was awful and they often said the same generic thing over and over again. but when you play as the iconians and go up against the Yor, the evil synthetic abominations that nearly destroyed your race after you created them the conversations are different, the feeling is different, and the game is funner. I've tried recreating that feeling with custom races and it's always an epic fail. So honestly i'd rather see more lore, more armor customization, than fight a computer with a +20 soldiering that never goes to war. Or a trade oriented race that never trades.... i think it simpler and better to just further develop the originals and devote a smaller amount of time focusing on be able to let someone make their own faction.

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