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Soulfire777
Soulfire777
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Will Stardock continue their tradition of advanced AI?

March 28, 2010 10:42:08 PM from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Will the AI for Elemental be featured as much as it was in previous (single player) Stardock strategy games, or will the AI be de-emphasised in favor of expecting other human players to create challenging opponents in a multi-player environment?

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Soulfire777
CommunionAndOracle
Join Date 03/2010
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Reply #1 March 28, 2010 11:48:14 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

So far it seems that they will.  It's one of the features prominently displayed under the gameplay section of the lore tab, and there was a dev. journal that I can't find that gave just a small example of how they are improving upon the AI of past games such as GalCivII.  Of course your mileage may vary, but from an objective standpoint based on the limited information available it certainly doesn't seem like Stardock is de-emphasizing the AI.   

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Soulfire777
maniakos
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Reply #2 March 29, 2010 12:08:21 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

That's a very interesting question Soulfire, My guess is that they will not be spending so much time with the AI. Why?

 

1. The addition of dozens of spells makes it very hard for any AI to choose what to cast, on what target and at what location and time. This Increases complexity, unless the spells are dumbed down: no unit spells, no city spells, no global spells, no map spells (i.e enchant land, firestorm, volcano from mom), no item enchanting, no spell countering..

2. The developer will also include multiplayer. I'm not saying that stardock doesn't have the time to implement both a good AI and multiplayer together, but that makes a project much bigger than any galciv title released to date.

3. Multiplayer games have a stronger emphasis on the comunity of people that play together.And that also makes great business sense.

I expect the publisher to shift their focus to the balancing of the mechanics/unit balancing (treat the word unit here very loosely), and the general multiplayer experience, rather that fixing or designing a very good AI. I expect the AI code and its design to be "copy pasted" and adapted from galciv2...

Also, I really hope that I am wrong on this, but I doubt it

 

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Soulfire777
Cauldyth
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Reply #3 March 29, 2010 12:20:45 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Actually, Brad has previously stated that considerably more work will be put into the Elemental AI than went into the GalCiv2 AI.  With GalCiv2, he wrote the AI singlehandedly during the final stages of development.  He has said that they're starting much earlier on AI development for Elemental, and that he also has some extra help on it.

Stardock has made it clear that the priority for Elemental is the singleplayer.  Don't expect them to care too much about hardcore balancing just to cater to the multiplayer side.

 

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Soulfire777
Cauldyth
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Reply #4 March 29, 2010 12:25:26 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Here's the link:

https://forums.elementalgame.com/364874

The relevant quotes from it:

On our previous games, I wrote the AI myself – The Politial Machine, GalCiv, Entrepreneur, etc.  This time, I have a small team to help me with it.

the AI in Elemental is a very big deal. People are excited about the features of Elemental but to me, those features are meaningless unless there are computer players that make good use of those features. Or more to the point, intelligent use of them.  While Elemental will have multiplayer (up to 32 people for starters), the focus of the game is single player. That’s the part of the game I want to make sure we absolutely nail and for that, it absolutely must have intelligent computer players.

 

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Soulfire777
maniakos
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Reply #5 March 29, 2010 1:35:52 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Cauldyth, I have read his post earlier, however, only time will tell if stardock will succeed.

 

Remember, this is a product, and there are deadlines and expectations set not just by people but by financial gains/ resources spent. This is not www.freeciv.org.

Also, the AI in galciv2 wasn't good by any means, but it wasn't bad either in fact it was the best in the industry, but still that wasn't enough for that game. Now  add all the new complexity in Elemental...

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Soulfire777
Tridus
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Reply #6 March 29, 2010 6:02:29 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting maniakos,
reply 2

2. The developer will also include multiplayer. I'm not saying that stardock doesn't have the time to implement both a good AI and multiplayer together, but that makes a project much bigger than any galciv title released to date.

3. Multiplayer games have a stronger emphasis on the comunity of people that play together.And that also makes great business sense.

I expect the publisher to shift their focus to the balancing of the mechanics/unit balancing (treat the word unit here very loosely), and the general multiplayer experience, rather that fixing or designing a very good AI. I expect the AI code and its design to be "copy pasted" and adapted from galciv2...

Also, I really hope that I am wrong on this, but I doubt it

Multiplayer and the AI are not developed by the same people. A game like this is heavily focused on single player (Brad has said that several times). They're not going to skimp there in order to make multiplayer work.

Besides, there is no real deadline on this game. The release date is about as firm as a cloud. I'd be shocked if it was released with a subpar AI.

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Soulfire777
maniakos
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Reply #7 March 29, 2010 6:23:20 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

I don't have anything else to add. If you see my reply, than you can check that I really hope that I will be wrong.

The AI might not be subpar but that alone doesn't say anything.

The word deadline was used loosely. All projects are bound by finite resources of money and time.

 

I hope I won't have to refer people into this thread after elemental is released.

 

Perhaps my expectations are set too high and stardock is ok.

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Soulfire777
astrath
Join Date 04/2006
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Reply #8 March 29, 2010 6:26:34 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting maniakos,
reply 5
Cauldyth, I have read his post earlier, however, only time will tell if stardock will succeed.

 

Remember, this is a product, and there are deadlines and expectations set not just by people but by financial gains/ resources spent. This is not www.freeciv.org.

Also, the AI in galciv2 wasn't good by any means, but it wasn't bad either in fact it was the best in the industry, but still that wasn't enough for that game. Now  add all the new complexity in Elemental...

 

That's the advantage of being both developer and publisher - they set their own deadlines.  The game was set back around six months to get a bigger beta program in, so they have plenty of time to do the AI.  Add to that the fact that the person who is in charge of the AI = the CEO/founder/boss/evil dictator of Stardock.

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Soulfire777
KillzEmAllGod
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Reply #9 March 29, 2010 6:33:48 AM
from Stardock ForumsStardock Forums

i'm sure they will keep their ai ahead of the rest of the world so far i don't know of any better unless you play vs a chess computer and you set it to the max they should win unless you cheat.

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Soulfire777
maniakos
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Reply #10 March 29, 2010 6:39:58 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting astrath,
reply 8

Quoting maniakos, reply 5Cauldyth, I have read his post earlier, however, only time will tell if stardock will succeed.

 

Remember, this is a product, and there are deadlines and expectations set not just by people but by financial gains/ resources spent. This is not www.freeciv.org.

Also, the AI in galciv2 wasn't good by any means, but it wasn't bad either in fact it was the best in the industry, but still that wasn't enough for that game. Now  add all the new complexity in Elemental...
 

That's the advantage of being both developer and publisher - they set their own deadlines.  The game was set back around six months to get a bigger beta program in, so they have plenty of time to do the AI.  Add to that the fact that the person who is in charge of the AI = the CEO/founder/boss/evil dictator of Stardock.

 

That's the reason I'm here. I have the utmost respect for Brad Wardell as a software engineer and as a businessman myself.

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Soulfire777
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Reply #11 March 29, 2010 7:13:38 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Add to that the fact that the person who is in charge of the AI = the CEO/founder/boss/evil dictator of Stardock.

You forgot to add : and sole owner

The fact that SD is a private company owned by Brad gives him lots of freedom about how using Stardock ressources

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Soulfire777
alway
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Reply #12 March 29, 2010 8:03:44 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

In addition to there being no time limit, finances are not a problem for Stardock. You must remember they have been doing so well they essentially doubled in size recently. And even still, I get the feeling Frogboy would rather spend a few million out of his own pocket than release a game in a poor state.

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Soulfire777
Myles
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Reply #13 March 29, 2010 9:51:08 AM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Yea, Frogboy has stated repeatedly that Elemental is his baby, not his cash cow. Stardock will be releasing the game when they think it's ready, not because of some deadline.

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Soulfire777
Soulfire777
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Reply #14 March 29, 2010 6:44:24 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Does anybody know if they plan to also to have a "non-cheating" AI like they have done in previous games?

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Soulfire777
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Reply #15 March 29, 2010 6:53:12 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Soulfire777,
reply 14
Does anybody know if they plan to also to have a "non-cheating" AI like they have done in previous games?

There's always a non cheating AI up to some difficulty level, yeah. The question is just how hard that one is.

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Soulfire777
Frogboy
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Reply #16 March 29, 2010 10:16:40 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

I'm writing the AI for Elemental. Single player is Elemental's focus.

While I am sure some people will play it multiplayer and we will make sure it's a good experience, my primary motivation is to provide a good single player game.

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Soulfire777
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Reply #17 March 29, 2010 10:18:30 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

BTW, one key difference in Elemental and galCiv is that in Elemental, we will be providing AI parts in Python. So after release, it won't just be me doing it. I am hoping the community will be interested in collaborating with me to keep enhancing it further than I could alone.

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Soulfire777
Annekynn
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Reply #18 March 31, 2010 3:18:57 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Frogboy,
reply 17
BTW, one key difference in Elemental and galCiv is that in Elemental, we will be providing AI parts in Python. So after release, it won't just be me doing it. I am hoping the community will be interested in collaborating with me to keep enhancing it further than I could alone.

Hurray!!! This was the one and only outstanding concern I had about this game and youve just put it to rest.

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Soulfire777
Beric01
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Reply #19 March 31, 2010 5:43:53 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Brad, it's good to hear you're doing the AI. I know how much you feel AI in games is important.

 

Couple of questions though. Will the AI assumably still be a fair opponent after, say, a year of play? Also, as various multiplayer strategies develop, will the AI be updated to both implement and counter these? I'm a singleplayer/LAN (co-op vs AI) user, but i still find myself reading into some multiplayer strategies online, unfortunately.  

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Soulfire777
Cauldyth
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Reply #20 March 31, 2010 5:57:19 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Will the AI assumably still be a fair opponent after, say, a year of play?

An AI will never be a match for a player who's mastered the game, unless it's allowed to cheat.  It's not yet possible for even the best AI researchers in the field to accomplish that, except in the case of much less complicated games (chess, backgammon, etc.).

 

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Soulfire777
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Reply #21 March 31, 2010 6:02:19 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

The AI in Elemental will keep being improved like the AI in Galactic Civilizations was.  The original GalCiv II AI was not nearly as good as the AI in Twilight of the Arnor.

I can't say at this early stage how well the AI will do against co-op mode.  

Right now, the specified MULTIPLAYER modes are:

1 v 1

2 v 2

FFA

--- the above are handled via Impulse::Reactor's matchmaking --

Custom Games (up to 32 players playing on a custom player server)

Personally, I picture playing custom games of 2 vs 30 AI players where the two of us are on a single team and the AI players are all playing FFA.

 

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Soulfire777
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Reply #22 March 31, 2010 6:05:28 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Double post - the forums sent some error messages, sorry.

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Soulfire777
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Reply #23 March 31, 2010 6:05:44 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Quoting Beric01,
reply 19
Couple of questions though. Will the AI assumably still be a fair opponent after, say, a year of play? Also, as various multiplayer strategies develop, will the AI be updated to both implement and counter these? I'm a singleplayer/LAN (co-op vs AI) user, but i still find myself reading into some multiplayer strategies online, unfortunately.  

With moddable AI, it'll probably be up to the community to write counters to specific tactics. It's impossible to say how good the AI will be at release, as I doubt even Brad can see into the future. Let alone how the AI will hold up after a year of play.

What I'm really interested in is what will "AI parts include"? Will we only have very limited control or can modders dig deep, deep within the AI behavior.

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Soulfire777
Cauldyth
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Reply #24 March 31, 2010 6:13:21 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

Personally, I picture playing custom games of 2 vs 30 AI players where the two of us are on a single team and the AI players are all playing FFA.

I'm sure that's how my friends and I will use the MP.

 

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Soulfire777
Tasunke
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Reply #25 April 1, 2010 9:13:44 PM
from Elemental ForumsElemental Forums

agreed, 2 vs world, 3 vs world, and 5-8 controlled ffa ... are my preferred multiplay styles

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