My Sovereign picks only Life books as my magic picks , but all I encountered is Death shards...

Age of Wonders 2 and SM allowed for the alteration of magic nodes, perhaps a compromise system could work here? This is simply brainstorming on my part (without beta access and a simple run over the wikia page for the beta), but maybe a spell that consumes essence to change a shard to whichever type of shard you wish?

I'm thinking of a way to make it difficult to change the shard properties (so as to keep them as strategic necessities) but to still have that option if you're confronted by the scenario you created above. Any thoughts? Your idea is interesting, and maybe could be adapted into a fifth (?) type of shard: a "virgin" shard that can be dedicated to one of the other elements by the first person who visits it?

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Can some one playing the beta tell me if my OP concern is a valid concern? I cannot play the beta now, as I have no time in my RL.

And if my concern is correct, I wish our beloved devs will chime in to see if there will be remedy in place.

Greyclouds40, your idea is on the mark.

I thought it will be interesting that if some Virgin shards will only change to an element your neighbor has, will be fun. Maybe only 15% of virgin shards are like that. The purpose of this kind of arrangement is that it increases conflict amongst neighbor.

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Yes, it's a valid one. Some spells need 2 shards like earth and water (for creating forest) And it's not that easy to get them both.

the more I play the eta, the more I hate the "needed" shards. Maybe being able to cast the spell for three times the cost, or allowing exchange of 3 shards of any color to get the shard you need : so a spell with 1 earth and 1 water could be cast if you have : 6 shard of any type, 1 earth and 3 others, 1 water and 3 others, 1 earth and 1 water.

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Can some one playing the beta tell me if my OP concern is a valid concern? I cannot play the beta now, as I have no time in my RL.

Well the spell system just went in and it is very bare-bones. Currently there is no mechanism for changing shards that I know of but I haven't seen every tech yet.

That being said I expect that it will be an option somehow. If I remember correctly MOM allowed you to change shards (or whatever they called them) so I expect Elemental to also. It probably won't be easy but I expect there will be a way. With this game I expect that to come in the form of a spell that everyone can get or by expending essence.

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I see several different ways this could be changed, some of which were already brought up.

1. Allow a means of changing a shard from one type to another at a cost.

2. Allow a player that captures a shard to set its type upon capturing (sort of like imbuing the sovereign's own essense into the shard.

3. Keep the shard type static but allow a shard to be used as another type for some additional cost.

4. Shards are static, but upon map generation randomize the shard types but weight the ones nearest the player to take on that player's spellbook types.

I prefer either idea #3 or idea #4 as I like the idea of the shards being static and I feel it fits better into the lore. Option 3 has the downside of still making it tougher on players that got a crummy starting position. I kind of like option #4 as it balances out the starting positions a bit. The downside is it adds some predictability to the initial setup. I'm not sure this is a huge problem though; on a very small ("skirmish" map in RTS parlance) map the sides will be more symmetrical which I think is good when resources are scarse; one a very large map less of the play area would be affected by the player's start positions.

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imbiginjapan has a pretty good summary, but why you do not put my OP suggestion in too?

For #1, the balancing will be difficult. If they make it too easy, it defeat the purpose of the shard system.

For #2, this will give the player one more reason to do some mad-early-rush to the shards

For #3, it will work well, but it seems to be not very innovative

For #4, how about pre-designed maps?

It is a good summary of the possibilities, but each one seems to be a bit lacking in some way (including my OP suggestion too). Anyway, this post is my attempt to bring up some dicussion on this issue; hopefully SD will think of some even better way.

imbiginjapan, welcome onboard! How big u r in Japan??!

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Hi Climber,

I agree with most of your comments...

For #1 balancing would be tough but that is true of anything in a game like this. But that's why we're participating in this beta!

I think your original suggestion comes pretty close to #2 with the addition of the random conversion. I think the "shard rush" as you are pointing out would still occur since the player would still be converting shards to their own color, and if you add the possibility of getting an unusable shard it would even increase since they now know they need to find one more to compensate for that random chance.

As far as #4 goes for predesigned map I imagine "generic" shards could be added that would take on a color based on a weighted randomization once the players start the game. I don't know enough about how starting points are defined on the maps to say that all shards would have to be generic or if the designer could have some control. I suspect there is no reason to limit the designer on this point. It would of course be the map designer's responsibility, but I could see shards with predetermined colors being used to provide particular sorts of challenges and generic shards being used to provide more balanced starts or more variation.

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I like the random chance aspect of shards. Great idea hope a dev sees it!

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Yea, I like the random chance too, especially weighted towards who they are nearest.

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Give each elemental spellbook a basic spell that allows players to enchant a single crystal and turn it into that cooresponding element. So if you start with a Fire elemental spellbook, you come with a spell to change a crystal into a fire crystal. But you can only cast it on one crystal at a time. Using it on a new crystal changes the prior crystal back to its original element. The spell should be releatively cheap, say it costs 1 essence to cast. But that is still significant, since that is one less city you can create in the early game.

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Would there be a imbalance if you could create all fire mana? I think this sort of wizardry specialization is a dangerously slippery slope. Players should be forced to war for the magic around them, within reason. So giving them one shard to change would be terrible, unless they allowed us to do it everywhere. And for that matter, what happens to a shard that is changed by one empire and then captured by another? Seems to cause a few problems in multiplay.

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EDIT: I don't think there is a problem if a player could have all fire magic as a fire mage. Its just a matter on how to do it exactly, and making sure its fun, engagin and balanced.

As for my suggestion, you could increase the number of shards you can enchant as you level up your magic. Maybe you could elaborate on what you mean by the dangers of wizardy specialization.

As for your problem in capturing a shard, thats really an easy fix. You simply lose your enchanment if you lose control of the shard.

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Give each elemental spellbook a basic spell that allows players to enchant a single crystal and turn it into that cooresponding element. So if you start with a Fire elemental spellbook, you come with a spell to change a crystal into a fire crystal. But you can only cast it on one crystal at a time. Using it on a new crystal changes the prior crystal back to its original element. The spell should be releatively cheap, say it costs 1 essence to cast. But that is still significant, since that is one less city you can create in the early game.

I think one glitch in this plan is that if the spell is cheap enough to be useful early on you could later "game" the system by repeatedly casting it to maneuver shard colors around. So for example you have a fire book, and own an earth and an air shard, you could cast your spell on the earth shard to get fire/air, and then cast it again to get fire/earth, then back again. So you're limiting the pressure to tap new sources of power in order to get access to new spells. I definitely think a player should have reasonable access to the most basic level (ie, if you have a fire book you should be pretty certain you'll get a fire shard) but from then on you either have to adapt to what you find or expand to find what you want.

Plus from a lore perspective I like the idea of the shards being immutable. After all the shards are the raw materials for magic. Allowing the player to change them just feels like the tail wagging the dog.

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Actually in all honesty, I don't like the "require X spell shards of type X to cast X spell" systems. They have exactly these kinds of problems, where your level of power is extremely location dependant. I have not yet played a game where I could really "get into" or enjoy the system.

Perhaps Elemental will be the first to make it work. : )

One idea: Make dungeons often conceal a shard of an unspecified type. When you adventure and explore it, the computer looks at what you have, and gives a greater chance of giving up a shard you can use than one you can't. This chance is increased (or decreased) depending on how many shards are either under your control or in your proximity.

One way to avoid spells that change shards while still making sure players don't get map-screwed too badly.

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About shards, I got an idea : why not creating a pool of consumable ? Each turn you get 1 shard point (maybe some buildings could give you some more) and you can always use the a shard point as a joker for needed shards.

But .. it would be too easy ! Yep ... but if you add the following rules : each tim eyou use a shard point, then the next cost is 1 more. So the second time you need an earth shard to cast a spell and don't have it, it will cost you 2 shard points. 3rd time ? 3 shard points.

A spell need 2 earth and 1 fire and you don't have both ? Just pay 1 + 2 + 3 = 6 shard points and voila ! In the end game it would cost so much that you would really need to get those shards.

EDIT : or you get 1 point every 10 turns and if you do some research you get 1 point every 9 turns, then 8 turns, then etc. For a "max" of a point every 5 turns.

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Quoting imbiginjapan,

reply 13

Give each elemental spellbook a basic spell that allows players to enchant a single crystal and turn it into that corresponding element. So if you start with a Fire elemental spellbook, you come with a spell to change a crystal into a fire crystal. But you can only cast it on one crystal at a time. Using it on a new crystal changes the prior crystal back to its original element. The spell should be relatively cheap, say it costs 1 essence to cast. But that is still significant, since that is one less city you can create in the early game.

I think one glitch in this plan is that if the spell is cheap enough to be useful early on you could later "game" the system by repeatedly casting it to maneuver shard colors around. So for example you have a fire book, and own an earth and an air shard, you could cast your spell on the earth shard to get fire/air, and then cast it again to get fire/earth, and then back again. So you're limiting the pressure to tap new sources of power in order to get access to new spells. I definitely think a player should have reasonable access to the most basic level (i.e., if you have a fire book you should be pretty certain you'll get a fire shard) but from then on you either have to adapt to what you find or expand to find what you want.

Plus from a lore perspective I like the idea of the shards being immutable. After all the shards are the raw materials for magic. Allowing the player to change them just feels like the tail wagging the dog.

Good point, but I think you could simply implement a turn delay before the enchantment goes into effect in order to prevent that.

As for the lore, I agree it does belittle the shards a bit. Though I guess at this point, the lore will be keep vague enough to allow the devs to fiddle with game mechanics (in case any changes would go against lore).

So, instead of thinking about it as if though the channeler is changing the actual shard, the channeler is simply transmutating the magic he/she is channeling out of the shard by injecting his/her own essence into it. Think of it as gasoline. They pump out crude oil from the ground, then add and take away certain things to make it into gasoline.

Visually on the map, the shard could stay the same color, but will now have a red halo around it (to indicate it has a fire enchantment on it).

You could have it so that you spend 1 essence each time the shard it tapped to produce the enchanted element, instead of simply a 1 essence cost up front. I like this better actually, since it could allow you to still use the original element, and further promotes players to find more shards (in order to save on essence).

Let’s say a wind shard is enchanted with fire, and the player controls no other fire shards. Each time the player uses a spell that requires 1 fire, 1 essence is used automatically. If the player then finds an actual fire shard, that same spell will now require no essence. However if another spell requires 1 wind, then no essence is also required, since the enchanted shard was originally wind and the magic channeled out of it does not need to be changed.

From the lore perspective, the shard is static and constant, and it’s the channeler who is doing all the work.

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I liked the idea of a one-time transformation of ONE shard only, into the element of your choice.

Personally I think it should be a permanent change, one that you can only Undo Once, and after that you cannot re-form it.

for instance, you have an air shard, want fire. Change the Air to Fire. Then you capture a Fire Shard, and want to use a Fire/Air spell. You can undo the enchant and it will once again be an Air shard, but now it is permanently an Air shard.

Alternatively, it could be impossible to undo the one-time tranformation.

The cost, then, is in the permanence. A strategic cost as opposed to a tactical/ levelling cost.

If however, we went the route of charging 1 essence every time the shard is used ... then I fear it will break the game. If you have too much essence, its a war of attrition, and if you have too little essence, the option will be impossible to use.

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Maybe 2 essence to change the shard ? Essence is just to sparce to use it without thinking. Reviving land costs 5 essence. Essence is your max mana. You can imbue heroes with essence. So, I think it would balance itself : you have the exact shards you need, but have less essence, so have less mana to use each turn.

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Personally I would prefer Permanence in effect as the cost, rather than essence cost.

In my method, if you never found a fire shard, you could only ever have one fire shard. In your method, you could have as many fire shards as you wanted, but it would cost you essence. Change it back? Will cost you essence.

I don't know, im not opposed to your idea, and I think its a good idea. However, to not go too far from current implementation I like my idea better.

Even though I think my idea is less easy to abuse, I suppose it all comes down to how many shards we will need for what sort of spells.

I would like for level 1 spells of each element to not require any shards.

Level 2 spells of each element to cost only 1 shard. Personally I think at least one of each shard. AKA, Fire 2 spells could have 5 spells which need 1 fire shard, 1 spell needing one water shard, 1 spell needing 1 air, 1 spell needing 1 earth.

Level 3 spells. Some spells are 2 Fire Shards, other spells are 1 Fire + 1X.

Of course, this is assuming there are only three basic "levels" of spells. Alternatively level 3 could be levels 9-10, Level 2 could be levels 6-8, and levels 1-5 could need no shards at all.

If you have more than two of the shard type you need, perhaps spells of that element could cost less mana, or something.

I also at first thought that mining a Shard would slightly increase your max mana for each shard you possess ... to add to your base max-mana from essence.

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I dunno. Most of the suggestions here seem to be geared towards never being 'land-screwed'. But this isn't Magic:the Gathering, it's a turn-based strategy - and in a TBS, being land screwed is a big part of the fun! If you need a resource and it's not in your territory, you shouldn't be able to wave your hand and make it all better and easy - you need to tailor your strategy in a meaningful way to achieve it. And when you do, it will be that much sweeter. That sort of struggle is what (for me) makes memorable game moments.

In fact, when I imagine the alternatives presented here, they all seem to bland up the game by taking out a central conflict (I hope that's not too terribly trollish).

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No, you're right. But what about the f&act that when you need an earth shard you get 3 fire shard that are useless to you ? If we could trade them, why not, but we can't. They are tied to a city.

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Hmm, they say the person that crafted the Shards was the Mage of Emerald ... (or something) ... yes?

In that case, how about having rare artifacts known as Gems of Emerald. Every Sovereign can start with one, or maybe have to spend a certain number of Sov points to start with one (5 sounds like a nice even number).

These Gems of Emerald are extremely powerful, and give a Channeler complete and full control of a magical shard for a split second. It is so quick, in fact, that although the Sovereign could theoretically control enough magic to tranform the entire world of physics, there are simply not enough Gems of Emerald in the world to let the control last long enough (hours) to actually destroy the nation or (days) to actually destroy/recreate the entire planet at once or (weeks) to recreate the laws of physics. Instead, you only have enough time to envision a single element. This knowledge has been passed along the lands, since the Shards were first created. At this point all the Sovereigns know of them, and of their function. Some say the Gems were created by the Mage of Emerald, others say they are pieces of her body. The world may never know. All we know is that it allows us a one-time shot to permanently change the element of a shard.

Use of a Gem of Emerald would allow you to change any one shard under your control to any element you desire. (however Kingdoms cannot use them to create Death Shards, and Empires cannot use them to create Life Shards).

The use of two Gems of Emerald could be used to destroy a Shard, forever losing its magical potency. (Perhaps giving you Essence)

I suggest all Canon Sovereigns (and default custom) start with owning a Gem of Emerald by default. It is something they can "remove" if they want an extra 5 points to spend elsewhere (similar to how stats start at 10, and you can turn to 0 to get 10 more points).

In this way, there is more than one obvious use, and its effects are as permanent as they are powerful. It would not be wise to underestimate the Gems of Emerald.

(Gems should be hard to find -at least guarded by a MegaBoss- and rare as well) perhaps 3-5 hidden in a standard sized map.

So then, you can Specialize in only one element, and keep the Gem, or you can "lose the Gem" and dish an extra 10 points to gobble up all 4 elemental books of magic.

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Quoting Tasunke,

reply 17

I liked the idea of a one-time transformation of ONE shard only, into the element of your choice.

Personally I think it should be a permanent change, one that you can only Undo Once, and after that you cannot re-form it.

for instance, you have an air shard, want fire. Change the Air to Fire. Then you capture a Fire Shard, and want to use a Fire/Air spell. You can undo the enchant and it will once again be an Air shard, but now it is permanently an Air shard.

Alternatively, it could be impossible to undo the one-time tranformation.

The cost, then, is in the permanence. A strategic cost as opposed to a tactical/ levelling cost.

This would be fine, maybe not as interesting, but it could work. Though it goes a bit against the lore's idea that crystals are permanent, immutable objects that imbiginjapan was mentionig. Plus not sure how you would explain how you can only change one crystal and thats its...but im sure we can come up with something. [EDIT: I just read your other post about gems of emerald..that would explain it]

Though consider this, if you are able to better manipulate shards, it might incline you to get more. If an opponent has a shard that you don't need, there is no incentive to capture it other than to deny it from your opponent. If you could manipulate it your liking, than there would be a greater incentive to steal it.

IMO, there needs to be a balance in being able to manipulate shards, and shards being permanent resources that the player must work with.

If however, we went the route of charging 1 essence every time the shard is used ... then I fear it will break the game. If you have too much essence, its a war of attrition, and if you have too little essence, the option will be impossible to use.

Not sure what you are trying to say is wrong with this. Seems to be the modus operandi of all strategy games. If you have resources, you are able to fight it out and win, and if don't have them, you suffer.

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Quoting tanafres,

reply 20

I dunno. Most of the suggestions here seem to be geared towards never being 'land-screwed'. But this isn't Magic:the Gathering, it's a turn-based strategy - and in a TBS, being land screwed is a big part of the fun! If you need a resource and it's not in your territory, you shouldn't be able to wave your hand and make it all better and easy - you need to tailor your strategy in a meaningful way to achieve it. And when you do, it will be that much sweeter. That sort of struggle is what (for me) makes memorable game moments.

In fact, when I imagine the alternatives presented here, they all seem to bland up the game by taking out a central conflict (I hope that's not too terribly trollish).

Well the people making the MTG analogies are the devs themselves. Being land screwed is problem in MTG, and it might be a problem here. Frankly its no fun finding all the wrong, useless crystals. Though the game is not fun period right now so its hard to say : P

In multiplayer I see this as being a bigger problem. I can see it now, people disconnecting or asking for a restart because they have all the wrong crystals. Might be a big reason why mp players would opt out on random maps. Though this might happen anyway

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Simple and Elegant solution.

You don't pick your Magic Books until you find a Shard(s). Then it simply doesn't matter what Shard(s) you find, you get to pick the appropriate Magic Book.

If you don't like Earth Magic, then hope you don't get placed in an area with a majority of Earth Shards.

So no Land Screwed possiblity based on Shard dispersal, but there could be some sad Panda's if the Magic Books do not offer the same levels of Power across the Board...

Thus a Balanced Magic system will be super essential.

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