Leaking essence

By on February 11, 2010 6:51:06 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Dr Franknfu...

Join Date 08/2005
+22

From Cerevox:

Not leakage like loseing it, leakage like regular people leak heat. Random stray radiation coming off him. Only if your wife spends lots of time wrapped around you, she should absorb a lot of it. Actually, it would be kinda cool if that applied to anywhere the channeler spent a lot of time or units that spent time near him. Just being near the channeler a lot should make a unit stronger.

I'm just thinking of how that could be applied in game as a concept. If you gain x amount of essence each level, perhaps a smaller amount could enter a pool that leaks over time. Like one point per level (or 1/3 of x if the numbers get higher later on) This could represent power that the sov cannot control. If you steal essence from another it would enter this pool rather than your essence points and wouldn't be spent directly.

So, now the idea of an uncontrolled essence pool is there, what can you do with it?

As otherwise mentioned, rather than giving essence to a hero/wife/unit and getting a +1 hero with all the gained abilities, this would be a gradual gaining of essence by another party. So at +0.2 they gain some extra health and max age, +0.5 a new ability, +1 they become as strong as an essence imbued hero, and can grow above this. If you have a wife, you apply your essence and then leak in a further +1, you could perhaps increase lifespan to immortal for age purposes. Increased health and defence and stronger abilities (for hero types).
So targets for leaked essence:
Hero
Army
Wife (counts as hero?)
Land
Artifacts
Cities
Useable essence (you learn to control the extra power)

The other questions are the rate of leakage... should it leak faster the more you have in the pool? say 0.01 of the pool per turn?

Second, what else can be leaked into? can you prioritise?
If you're travelling with a hero, they should gain your leaked essence.
on your own? - accumilates in the land
with an army? slowly accumilates in the army.
Walking through your land with an army and a hero? - shared equally? or controlled with a user action?

So what user actions could tip the invested leaked essence without making it just annoying?
Meditation type spell in your magic tower to allow for leaking into useable essence
Proximity? Walk around with a hero and you can't help but leak essence into them?
Duration of contact? 5 turns isn't enough to start leaking, after that it is.
Random? Perhaps each turn only one is chosen of the available, rather than a division. It would increase the odds of it being army if you walk around with your troops, increase odds of hero if you do that, and land if you stay in one place.

Lastly should leaked essence carry on leaking?
If your sov dies/moves very far away... should the leaked essence dissapear or... move... If your sov sat alone in his tower and the land gained +2 essence (with whatever result) after he dies should the land wither?(gradually fading essence) or should any occupying army capture it? or should it be permenant?

Lastly, how should it be represented?. I'd like it to be tagged on to the end of essence now, with a mouseover popup showing the rate of leakage. Infocards of units and land could gain an extra property (gained essence) that only shows when they've got more than a minimum useful amount. (invisible at 0.0 or 0.09)

 

I'm just thinking that this would be useful... there's always the problem of control and how to impliment it in magic or essence. You can have spell failure, or things going completely wrong. Which is both annoying and impractical for something as expensive as essence. Most of the things here would be better done if you did it in a single turn and meant to do it, a lot of it is wasted. But that's the point. The difference between a sov with control and one without would be that the one with control gets x+1 essence, the one without gets x essence and +1 to the pool. They still grow at the same rate, but one, by leakage, is turning the land blue and filled with flowers and making the farmers able to kick cows over fields... the other is making the land exactly what they want and making their hero kick dragons over mountains.

Obviously you could have a pure might sov... with no real spells, they would get all of the essence in the pool, it would still allow them to imbue things, perhaps at an even faster rate, without requiring any spells or knowledge of their actions. So the effects would be random... or sadorandom... but it would allow them to compete on a level playing field.

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February 11, 2010 8:32:41 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Exposure to the Sovereign should be meaningful, prolongued and continued to have any real effect.

  • Just hanging with your buddies in the local pub once a month won't grant them any Essence bonus.
  • Continuous relation (not necesarily sexual) with the wife for many months (turns/whatever) can start to have some minor effects on her. The effect needs lots of time of you could have a balance issue of uberleaking everything in a few turns, making channelers feel cheap.
  • Hang out with a squad for some months won't make the squad a channeler squad. Unless severe leakage of Essence, it'd make no sense to need the same time to "imbue" the wife than to "imbue" the whole squad.
  • If it affects the people around him, it should affect also the items (included clothes). So while he leaks to her wife, he is also leaking to his own clothes, her wife's clothes, the dinner table, the dog, the spy that spies on him from the picture behind his throne everyday...
  • Effects from exposure are to be permanent or they would need continuous non interrupted presence of the source (aka Sovereign). That would make this a bit pointless but not useless (overpowered bodyguards ftw!!!).
  • Farmers kicking cows over the mountains won't serve any purpose as you won't be able to use them unless you recruit them. Then they are not farmers anymore.

Considering that once imbued the land, it keeps expanding. Or that once heroes are imbues they are to keep gaining essence at level up (but less than a Sovereign). Then some extra considerations could be made to my points but they are not important en ough (that I can see) to mention them as the problems are still there.

Sovereigns not based on spellcasters would be nice, using Essence and mana for "feats" and "enhancements".

It could be the case that I totally missed the point of the OP. In that case I apologize and will make sure to hire the best PI (payed by him, obviously) to find it.

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February 11, 2010 2:42:54 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I don't like this idea. Currently, there is no way to replace lost essence short of gaining levels. I feel it would deaden the idea that your channeller is immortal, and powerful if his essence is leaking away. It would also deaden the idea that he's really getting more powerful when he levels up if he's destined to fall back to where he began (or even further back).

I mean, if his essence is leaking away, how did he manage to keep his powers before the game began?

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February 11, 2010 3:10:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I see the Sovereign as a radiation factory, making units near him permanently morphed over time.  In game terms, this means that units in the same tile get a small fractional modification - a small boost - each turn.  This boost would increase as the Sovereign levels, and would cap at max level at around .05%.  This means every twenty turns a unit is in close proximity to the Sovereign, they get a 1% boost to all of their stats.  Meaningful, but in no ways overpowered.  Magical Tech research could double this effect.  The hard cap for a units boost would be around 25%.  This means that a maximum level sovereign with the right research could reach the cap in 250 turns.  

I do not think we need to complicate this with the pool system, or limit its effects based on the number of units close to the Sovereign.

So what are the gameplay effects?

1.  The Sovereign will be kept with the Army most of the time, unless there is a system to encourage the Sovereign to stay in the city.  I really like how this could offset a research/upkeep boost for a city-bound Sovereign.

2.  In addition to the initial cost to train a unit, and the experience he gains over time, this exposure boost will make them a bit more valuable.  This means that high level nations will still think thrice before sending their star troops off to die.

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February 11, 2010 3:49:14 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Selective leaking is not fun. Affecting only troops is not leaking...

(egads x3)

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February 11, 2010 4:28:06 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I don't know about all the different directions... initially my thoughts were "uncontrolled power". It's power above the maximum you can control. To suggest that your sov has grown so powerful after a battle that he's doing things without realising.

Also, the pool would be on top of max essence, that wouldn't change, you couldn't die from it, nor would it lessen anything else you can already do, nothing would be any different from how things are at the moment, except you could use this to give passive boosts without casting spells.

Continuous relation (not necesarily sexual) with the wife for many months (turns/whatever) can start to have some minor effects on her. The effect needs lots of time of you could have a balance issue of uberleaking everything in a few turns, making channelers feel cheap.

The initial idea was for the pool to be a point per level up that would take ~100 turns to passively distribute.

As an example:

If you needed 10 turns where you'd be given the boost for something noticable (say a 0.1 if you have a pool of 1 or 1 bonus for a pool of 10), chosen randomly from 4 options (hero, army, land, other), you've got a probability of 1.4% of passively imbuing in 20 turns. 84% in 50 turns. (Cumilative binomial probability distribution to calculate it). I don't think that's bad. It would make your bodyguard strong...eventually. And yes I think it should be permenant.

But I don't think it would be anything more than flavour in most cases, by turn 200 you'd probably have passively done a few things that you couldn't do normally, but unless you were a pure might sov it's not something you could either plan for or use effectively. (Which was my intention, I'm sure you could quite easily make uber bodyguards and imbue them with a ton of essence if you wanted... this isn't about that)

Not sure if the idea is going anywhere, but i like the image of someone walking around and everything turning to ash if they stay their long enough. (let a fallen ally stay in your lands could be dangerous in itself)

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February 11, 2010 4:46:15 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I dislike this leaking thing as both a mechanics notion and a choice of language. Emitting waste heat is not "leaking." Wetting the bed or bleeding from a wound is "leaking." Even urine-related slang sort of backs this up--you "take a leak," you don't just "leak."

The game mechanics just seem like a sort of tax on essence that's more likely to end up narrowing the range of viable playstyles than it is to add fun to the game.

I'm on the fence about some sort of 'exposure' process, though. There's no need to draw down a sovereign's essence to justify the idea that contant proximity to this powerful being might have some unusual effects, whether you're talking about land, critters, or companions. But coming up with mechanics that avoided favoring roaming vs. home-based sovereigns, etc., might be hard--and it sure seems like one of those annoying 'balance' debates waiting to happen.

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February 11, 2010 6:39:14 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It's semantics if leaking of essence above your normal maximum power, in proportional to your essence and therefore level and strength was replaced with emitting heat, or in this case... almost magical radiation exposure... it's still proportional to your sov strength, of which level is a poor indicator but essence is a good one. Either way it: neither has too use up effective essence (so again no tax, no loss of anything) nor would it stop it functioning in the same way, but the pool... Radiation source if you want to change the wording... could be a hidden variable, because level itself would be a poor indicator of how much power the sov actually wields currently. i.e. a level 20 sov that used all his essence making cities everywhere 5000 turns ago shouldn't warp creatures faster than a just hit lv 19 sov brimming with unspent essence due to going gandalf.

There is a need to involve essence in this for another reason: the devs have said that magic isn't common and magical effects shouldn't be happening for free all over... they use essence to explain this. So any permenant magical effect from "exposure" would require some tweak of lore if it didn't include essence somewhere at least as a token gesture. (this is more of a token gesture except in the pure might suggestion)

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February 11, 2010 6:44:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I always thought of the "leaking" as radiation. "Leaking" liquids for this "leaking essence" would be like... the Sovereign spits when talking? So He leaks on anyone he talks with?

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February 11, 2010 7:06:53 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Wintersong,
I always thought of the "leaking" as radiation. "Leaking" liquids for this "leaking essence" would be like... the Sovereign spits when talking? So He leaks on anyone he talks with?

The radiation thing is the other part of why it doesn't work for me--radiation leakage is unarguably hazardous (just as anal leakage is univerally unpleasant, fetish-folks excepted), and this 'essence leakage' thing seems to be a suggestion for a positive effect on terrain and/or units.

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February 12, 2010 3:31:26 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting GW Swicord,

and this 'essence leakage' thing seems to be a suggestion for a positive effect on terrain and/or units.
As long as it's neutrally positive (with Trait option of not being positive) in the sense of even ally/enemy terrain/units getting the benefits too of it, that's fine. The idea has potential per se but it also has potential for complex microsystems that don't pay off.

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February 12, 2010 6:15:36 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The radiation thing is the other part of why it doesn't work for me--radiation leakage is unarguably hazardous (just as anal leakage is univerally unpleasant, fetish-folks excepted), and this 'essence leakage' thing seems to be a suggestion for a positive effect on terrain and/or units.

Again...*long sigh*... would diffusion work better? osmosis? Air pressure? water flowing down a mountain? Light from a candle? heat from a fire? all of these have one thing in common, moving from high density to low density, high potential to low potential... anywhere there is a gradient... with radiation it's only dangerous because of extremely high densities, but if things were used to it, they'd scavenge energy from it and feed on it. Light is radiation too... so is heat... true it's not alpha or beta... but it can still be very damaging if you're not shielded from it... heat can dessicate you, light can burn you and cause cancer...
So... change the word to diffusion because it sounds nicer and it's how a lot of life works... true, poisons diffuse too... all these things are purely physical phenomenon that can either be good or bad (since that's completely relative to the observer). It's not inherent in any of them. It's mearly one name for a mechanism of localised passive effects... not empire wide bonuses or effects. (diffusion happens without any input of energy, no effort... it just does it)

If you have essence diffusing... you're giving extra life essence to something, which would in theory make it more like you. It would be hard to imagine the life essence of a good hearted sov corrupting the land... but it'd also be odd for an evil sov to bless the land... so the effects should be limited to whatever limits the factions have on normal essence use. But it would be as harmful as spreading culture would be. It'd help to limit the spread of enemy culture as well...(whatever word it is for the expanding borders due to essence expenditure required to plant a city). Like putting capital ships in a gravity well to stop approaching culture in sins, this would allow you to sit your sov on your border to protect it, or to advance it passively.

So... it's just a more complicated way of doing things, that isn't as complicated as modelling a gradient moving out from your sov towards infinity (the edges of the map) and affecting everything to a pointless and resource demanding extent. It could be a pseudo gradient, affect the tile he's on 1, the cross he's centered on 1/5 that and the diamond 1/5 that. But it wouldn't add much, perhaps allow a might sov to imbue things he's not standing on in his city... but it would take far more turns then he'd be likely to remain in one place... still it'd be nice to have.

Anyway... I liked the idea initially, but now I think the concepts would be better done simply as traits. "x-presence" like "healing footsteps" or "regenerative aura" or "cursing touch"... something to give passive effects from contact with your sov or on the land in his/her presence. It could just be a constant effect applying a certain buff to friendly units or tiles within range. Since the essence idea isn't well liked. It's just far more dull imho.

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February 12, 2010 2:04:05 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I like the basic idea(but then you started with a quote from me   ) but the mechanics look overly complex. I was thinking something more like, For every decade spent in the same tile as the Sov, a unit gains X powers, where X is some to be decided amount.

EX> if your wife spends 2 decades in the same tile as you, she gains +1 to hit in combat and the ability to sense the presence of peeling paint. Little abilitys decided at random.

Again...*long sigh*... would diffusion work better? osmosis? Air pressure? water flowing down a mountain? Light from a candle? heat from a fire? all of these have one thing in common, moving from high density to low density

Pick whatever word you want, we just want the idea.

It should also effect any items he uses regularly. He walk around with a regular iron sword all the time? in a century it should be a magic item with some good powers, in 300 years it should be an artifact. It is too long a time scale to allow mass production but it keeps the stuff around the sov up to par.

That and his wife should gain powers a bit faster since she is damn close to him a lot and they swap fluids all the time.

The idea is that the channeler dosen't just use magic, he IS magic.

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February 12, 2010 2:39:57 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The Channeler channels magic. Isn't magic.

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February 12, 2010 2:58:47 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Well, ya, but after channeling so much magic and using it to enhance himself and such, it would make sense for him to have a quite a bit of magic just sitting around chilling in his bones and flesh or whatever.

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February 12, 2010 3:13:57 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Cerevox,
Well, ya, but after channeling so much magic and using it to enhance himself and such, it would make sense for him to have a quite a bit of magic just sitting around chilling in his bones and flesh or whatever.
Maybe. After many dozens of turns.

Sovereign: "Hey dear, guess what!"

Wife: "Finally created a spell to prevent snoring like a troll when you sleepl?"

Sovereign: "No... I'm magical!"

Wife: "You lost all your magic during the honeymoon, dear."

Sovereign: *casts Raise Krakatoa Spell on random peasant*

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February 12, 2010 3:16:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Maybe. After many dozens of turns.

Sovereign: "Hey dear, guess what!"

Wife: "Finally created a spell to prevent snoring like a troll when you sleepl?"

Sovereign: "No... I'm magical!"

Wife: "You lost all your magic during the honeymoon, dear."

Sovereign: *casts Raise Krakatoa Spell on random peasant wife*
There. All fixed.

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February 12, 2010 3:43:51 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

random peasent = wife  

 

 And i would think it should take many many turns. People should not start growing a 3rd arm out of thier forehead until its well into the 2nd century of game, maybe even longer. This mechanic should not even effect short or quick games, it should be for those of us who set the map to XXXXXXXXXXL and plan on spending the next 3 years playing it.

 

 

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February 12, 2010 4:31:32 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Scoutdog,

There. All fixed.

No unless you mod who really wears the pants in that faction.

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February 12, 2010 4:37:28 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

True, true.......

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