Marrying Up for folks at the Top

By on February 8, 2010 6:25:30 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Cerevox

Join Date 07/2007
+13

Was talking about marrying odd things like spirits and such in another thread and had enough thoughts on the issue to give it its own thread.

The channelers are way up at the top of the totem poll in this universe, why are they marrying these mortal peasent women. Even spirits are not much better. A decent channeler can call up a dozen spirits before lunch to do his bidding. Why not marry in your own class? Why not try for something above his class. Enter avatars of ideas/concepts.

Example, if you tend to make lots of troops and go to war a lot, perhaps you could end up marrying war not just figurativley but litterally. The incarnation/avatar/embodiment of war could show up and propose to you. Although it would be more like she shows up and declares the two of you joined and brings with her a dozen super-elite berserker handmaidens or something.

Accepting the proposal gets you some bonuses to war-like actions,building troops and fighting and such, and you get the handmaidens and the avatar who can kick ass on thier own as heroes/powerful units. On the flip side, people tend to not to take peace treatys seriously with a guy who bumps uglies with war herself. And if you do make a lot of peace treatys, she might get pissed at you. Your mortal peasent wife getting mad at you is one thing, have War mad at you is something very different. Especially if your sharing a bed.

Or, you could refuse her, at which point she does what she does best, namely, breaks into your bases and starts killing your dudes like its '95 and we are all still noobs at computer games. Jittled women are dangerous, jittled avatars? Prepare for serious pain.

You could have a whole bunch of embodied beings you can shack up with. War, pride, farming, nature, trade. Trade/wealth/gold avatar would be hilarous. Have a big merchant empire and you can marry her. Your merchants do great and everyone wants to make trading deals with you since they always give massive returns. BUT, she claims she needs to swap out her old palace for a new palace every year or so for "Tax Purposes".

Refuse her though, and suddenly your merchants are getting hit by every single con-man in the world.

 

This would be a major choice though. Embodied concepts don't get old and die, they hang around forever, and divorcing them has some serious reprucusions. If you marry a human, you can trade up after a few years and she dies, or you can just get rid of her, after all, what can one human do to you? But pick up an avatar, and thats where your gonna be 1000 years from now too.

These superior beings could be great for quests, both giving and having quests dealing with them and actually getting one happy enough with you to marry you could be a major questing ordeal.

Anyway, thats my idea.

 

 

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February 8, 2010 7:28:00 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Sounds interesting enough... I'd like for the avatars to appear and just ally with you for a while before actually getting intimate.... makes far more sense that way.

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February 8, 2010 7:32:41 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Ya, that is what i meant about the questing to get them and such. Gives you time to get aquainted. The only time one would just pop in and marry you would be if it was war and you just finished razing and murdering an entire race of peace loving hippie people who don't even understand the concept of fighting, much less war or killing. That sort of thing.

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February 8, 2010 10:04:20 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I like this idea.    As long as it comes with enough risks so that marrying normally is still considered a legitimate option, I'm in.

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February 9, 2010 3:28:19 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I don't think it's a matter of liking or disliking the idea but of "Does the Elemental lore allow it?". For what we know of it right now, the top dogs are Dragons and (with time) Sovereigns. Maybe Titans if they ever appear in game? Everyone else is a pus... not so strong. There might be beings not as powerful as dragons but still interesting enough to be a menace (and suitable for "interspecies breeding"). Gods? We don't know if there are any (no indications of such) and/or if there is any kind of spirit world that can interact with normal world (with shamans and all that... hmmm no, no shamans as they would be like channelers? Doesn't deny the spirit world idea though).

Maybe the Sovereign marries one of his own because he starts as a "normal" being. Yeah, he brings the land to life but that doesn't change he suddenly and would be tied to normal impulses (like mating with someone of the same species to reproduce instead of "lets fuck a demon to create an army"). Maybe in the campaign the Sovereign starts as a normal being that has discovered his powers and has decided to use them for the benefit of his people but that later must struggle with the lose of the loved beings (they age normally and he doesn't), the hazards of trying to stablish themselves as a power in the world, the lose of humanity as time goes by...

That doesn't deny that some Sovereigns can start as tyrant warlords wannabes that only think about conquering lands and creating vast armies unbeatable for any mundane force. But our warlord wannabe is subjet to lore limitations about where he can seathe his "mighty sword" (or maze?).

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February 9, 2010 9:15:31 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Actually, I think Titans would fit the bill pretty well... you bring up an intetresting point though, that soverign (and perhaps scion) reproductive preferances would change over time, as they steadily lose their humanity and don't age as fast......

"lets fuck a demon to create an army"
Oh gear lord... now I can't get the "interspecies prostitution" coverstory scene from D9 out of my mind.... thanks a lot!  

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February 9, 2010 9:23:25 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Scoutdog,
"Oh gear lord... now I can't get the "interspecies prostitution" coverstory scene from D9 out of my mind.... thanks a lot!

You are welcome?

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February 9, 2010 6:00:16 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Lore is easy, channeler power leaking out or creation energies or whatever the magic is called leaks out and ends up empowering ideas/concepts that channelers think about a lot. If a channeler spends a lot of time thinking about war, then eventually war becomes real and gains an avatar. Thats one way to work it.

Basically, i kept thinking that marraying those peasents of whatever is kinda pathetic. I am Channeler, hear me Roar! that kind of thing. These guys are way way way up at the top of the totem poll, dragons are the only things in thier league. Why do i even care about these insignifcant worms? I speak a word and 10,000 troops march forth to die for my personal glory, because i liked the name of the country they counqured for me, or simply because i am bored. Why treat one these little sniveling critters who could not even raise themselves out of the mud as my equal?

The idea was to come up with something that could be a peer for a channeler, without actually being a channeler. These avatars are weaker then channelers, not nearly as much power. But at least they have a feel of strength to them, someone actually worthy of marrying. I don't want my channeler getting stuck between choosing one worm to marry or the other worm.

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February 10, 2010 9:13:10 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Lore is up to Stardock (mainly Frogboy, I suppose). So you need to sell them the idea.

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February 10, 2010 4:24:23 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

maybe i should hire a barker? Who was that guy who posted "can i haz beta acess nao?" in every single thread for weeks? Maybe i can get him to talk about my ideas, or less like single sentence and more like wall-o-text spam. On second thought, maybe not....

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February 10, 2010 4:46:57 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think that some posts and/or thread with the nice write up of the idea (but not only from the point of view of depraved channelers that only think of getting uber armies!!) integrated in what we know of the lore, can help a lot. After all, if they haven't thought about it yet (or didn't find reasons for it), then you would be making some of the work for them (and/or at least make them consider it).

An avatar with the message you want to share also helps. I like your current avatar though.

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February 10, 2010 5:03:03 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Its why i am just tossing ideas out. I figure if there are any good ones the devs will pick up on them and the crappy ones can just sink to the bottom of the boards. And i can't help it if i have trouble thinking from teh perspective of the weakling peasents. Speaking from the perspective of a depraved emperor with vast armys just seems to come naturally to me.

And i figure my avatar will help me the most by being as cute as possible.

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February 10, 2010 5:13:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Don't listen to Winty about your user pic; he has user pic-DID. A very bad case of it

I do agree with him that if you're serious about pitching an idea for non-human/fallen 'peers' as possible mates for sovereigns, putting your case in somewhat dry/abstract terms might help.

I confess that the tone left me uninterested in responding to a first read and my doubts about the devs making a significant lore change left me uninterested in a second read. But this is a situation where constructive persistence might well pay off. On a belated second read of your OP, I'm still a bit doubtful that the game lore is incomplete enough to be able to include personified abstractions as major characters/entities, but I think I might like it very much if my doubts are unfounded. Especially if the avatars were indeed neither deities nor mortals, just very powerful 'others.'

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February 10, 2010 5:35:43 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting GW Swicord,
Don't listen to Winty about your user pic; he has user pic-DID. A very bad case of it

Ah, but I don't have that. I always have an avatar. That you see something different from time to time is irrelevant. It's still an avatar. More precisely icon.jpg if you try to save it. And as my avatar is not my identity anyway, I cannot suffer any kind of dissociative identity disorder about it.

And I wouldn't change so often of avatar if you people weren't so boring of always using the same avatar (that or I need more people in this forum!) and/or using avatars that are not (so much) of my liking. There, blameshift done.

Do like me and always check the usernames instead of "trusting" avatars. Now excuse me that one of my alter egos needs to comment about something else.

...

Yep, I think that GW Swicord is right in that last paragraph. One thing that I don't like of some of the suggestions I see in the forums (in which I can include some of mine, I'm not innocent) is that they are suggestions that don't try to fit in what we know of the lore but change things to fit the suggestion, or that they suppose things that of what we know of the lore doesn't seem to confirm. And some of those suggestions are actually quite good. But it's like the Sovereign dead equal to defeat: it's there because it's about the lore of the game, not to annoy some players, and I'm sure that Stardock will try hard to make the system work well (and improve it as more systems are added and can get more player feedback about it).

If Stardock was so nice to actually release more about the lore... I know why they don't release more but it's a... PITA?

My biggest hopes go for expansion packs not tied to the lore of the base game and that allow crazy new and interesting ideas that didn't fit in it to be added. I think that the idea in this thread can fit the lore, but if tweaked somehow. The fact that Fallen (ogres or whatever) are bioweapons (yeah, not a very magical term but I prefer a science approach, which is a different type of magic), things like this should be possible in some way or another.

The alter ego in charge of walls of text apologizes.

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February 10, 2010 5:42:19 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

TBH, i would happy if you could marry one of your more powerful heroes and expand her lifetime. I just don't want to be in a long game and be on wife # 138 or some such and i need to read the barcode i stamped on their forehead to remember their number. I just want the soverign to have an actual partner, not an accesory that ranks below his favorite slippers in importance.

Have they described how channelers are made yet? IIRC they said a few are born every now and then, very rare and such. Was it a one time event when we were all born/empowered at the same time or are channelers continuing to be created? If they are still being made, and i have an empire with a billion citizens, i would expect for a channeler or two to pop up over the centurys, no? Could i snap up those NPC channelers and make them my wife?

And i know my ideas tend to be ill-formed/written but enough people seem to read them, and if even one idea helps one person make a good idea, i will consider it a success. I am cool being a butterfly effect.

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February 10, 2010 5:43:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I cannot suffer any kind of dissociative identity disorder about it.

That's just your abstract-feather headdress talking...

Re the devs tight lore lips, I hope that behavior means they are still trying to keep the lore in a semi-raw state so that they can finish it and the core mechanics more or less together, rather than way after the fact a-la GalCiv.

I suspect there's also some deliberate withholding of things like feature lists, major lore summaries, etc., because they are interested in seeing what might come up from 'random' posters like Cerevox, and every 'official fact' runs the risk of discouraging someone from sharing an idea that the devs might really like.

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February 10, 2010 5:52:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Ya, your probably right. They want to encourage more ideas and writing the rules in stone and handing them out chill some folks off.

Ahhh, giving devs the benefit of the doubt, haven't done that since '98? feels good.

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February 10, 2010 6:07:26 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yeah but some ideas are... wrongly presented. To totally ignore the "Sovereign death = game over" to present a system that doesn't use it (dinasties, you know I was talking about them), is just wrong. Unless somehow force a mind change in Frogboy about it.

We dance barefooted over the sharp edge of a sword and while some of us try to not to cut ourselves and be in harmony with the sword, others don't mind hoping that their spilled blood will change the sword.

Oh, Cerevox, I have the feeling that our sovereigns won't have many wives. Their children will have chidren that will have more children... If you can keep producing even more, the balance issues can be huge. Heroes/Sions must be limited of you might as well only have an army of them and not recruit normal units. Just saying.

Quoting Cerevox,

And i know my ideas tend to be ill-formed/written but enough people seem to read them, and if even one idea helps one person make a good idea, i will consider it a success.

Not sure about the first part (point of view dependant) but totally right in the last part.

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February 10, 2010 6:27:13 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

No, pretty sure they are poorly written. I can see lots of things i could of done better.

As for wives, even if there is only one, its still just the wife accessory. Even if nothing else, sleeping with a channeler should give her some serious powers just from essence leakage after a few decades. Its my wife, my partner, my mate. I don't want her to just be a picture in the game and simply function as a womb on legs. I would like her to actually have a real role to play.

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February 10, 2010 7:43:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

If the wife were to be a character/unit, you could always imbue her with Essence (essence leakage? Are you sure you want that? Your sovereign losing Essence points because of bed time?).

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February 10, 2010 7:51:45 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Not leakage like loseing it, leakage like regular people leak heat. Random stray radiation coming off him. Only if your wife spends lots of time wrapped around you, she should absorb a lot of it. Actually, it would be kinda cool if that applied to anywhere the channeler spent a lot of time or units that spent time near him. Just being near the channeler a lot should make a unit stronger.

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February 10, 2010 8:27:11 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I also would find it interesting for things the channeler cares deeply about or spends a lot of energy on to get some essence of their own: say, if you use a specific sword in a lot of battles or do a lot of things with a specific unit or build a lot of crap in a specific town then some of your essence gets stored there (making the whatever-it-is stronger, but costing you a tad (or a lot) if you lose/kill it).

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February 11, 2010 2:44:47 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Cerevox,
Not leakage like loseing it, leakage like regular people leak heat. Random stray radiation coming off him. Only if your wife spends lots of time wrapped around you, she should absorb a lot of it. Actually, it would be kinda cool if that applied to anywhere the channeler spent a lot of time or units that spent time near him. Just being near the channeler a lot should make a unit stronger.
That would clash your harem idea. Units getting stronger just because they were near? For free? IMBA!!!!

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February 11, 2010 3:06:31 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Naw, if i have 10 women in harem, each will only be spending 1/10 the time with me, thus less power for each. After it falls below a certain threshold, its no different then if the person is naturally lucky. Of course, anyone in my harem would be the luckiest gal around anyway.

And actually, that would balance out pretty well. One wife gets powerful but has few kids, 20 concubines stay weak but make hordes of kids for you to use.

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February 11, 2010 4:35:34 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I feel soooo tempted to try to mod a harem minigame in which you have to deal with jealous wives bitching with each other trying to get the attention of the Sovereign... Something a la Raise the Red Lantern.

At the same time, that feels more like some kind of adventure/conversational game.

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February 11, 2010 2:53:07 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Wintersong,
Yeah but some ideas are... wrongly presented. To totally ignore the "Sovereign death = game over" to present a system that doesn't use it (dinasties, you know I was talking about them), is just wrong. ...

That's yet another case where the details of the game story and the draft mechanics will make all the difference. What if it comes down to something as simple as sovereigns becoming decreasingly fertile as they gain magical power? That would be gender neutral, scale well, and 'perfectly justify' the rough outline of the dynasty system we've had so far.

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