The Sovereign Death = Game Over Question

a pseudo-poll

By on February 3, 2010 2:53:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

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Denryu's done some interesting polls via SurveyMonkey, but I'd like to see some current opinions on a 'simple' question that has been around pretty much since the Elemental boards launched in late '08.

Yes or No: Should having your sovereign die mean the game is over for you?

If you can stand it, please keep your answers to a single word. If you want to argue the question, please start a fresh thread or pick up with one of the old ones related to the question.

My answer is "Yes."

Edit: Admiral100 raised a very good point. If you want an option to choose, please reply Both instead of Yes or No.

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February 4, 2010 10:22:19 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think that either way can be done well. For me, it depends on whether it makes sense with the story. 

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February 4, 2010 10:28:19 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Ah yes, good old D2 Hardcore, you die game over, and there is no reloading. I remember losing my cool more than once because of that.

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February 4, 2010 1:39:16 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yes.

(Or Both, but that wouldn't affect my decision.)

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February 4, 2010 2:16:44 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yes for no heirs.

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February 4, 2010 2:28:06 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

No, just levy large penalties on military and economic factors to reflect the chaos created by the Soverign's defeat. While he "recovers" (think Sauron in LOTR), these penalties are in place. You can tweak the magnitude and duration of these effects to balance the game.

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February 4, 2010 2:53:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

For Single player - If the answer was NO, then the Sov becomes a nuetered unit. With YES, he retains his magical aura and prestige.

For Online play - The Host decides, those who agree join, everyone else can go pound sand or each other.

 

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February 4, 2010 3:53:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I gotta say that the only option I don't like is both. For cohesiveness sake you have to pick one. They can't both make sense.

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February 4, 2010 5:12:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I gotta say that the only option I don't like is both. For cohesiveness sake you have to pick one. They can't both make sense.

Hi cephalo, can you explain that a bit more please? Why on Earth wouldn't you want the choice? Cohesive integrity, as you say, would surely be maintained if you never chose the one you didn't like?

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February 4, 2010 6:15:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Clarifying a bit my 'no': I consider it is much more interesting for a 4X to lose based on your own incompetence than by sheer tragedy in one single battle. Let us not make every game a regicide, please.

Think on all the complexity, the struggles one nation might face after its Sovereign is dead. Now think on how 'game over' is a cheap way out of building a proper scheme of succession.

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February 4, 2010 9:29:54 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Let us not make every game a regicide, please.

This is exactly why I'd prefer the choice...because I could choose 'Yes' unless my games were being ruined by a regicide dynamic, in which case I'd change.

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February 4, 2010 11:43:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yes.

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February 5, 2010 9:56:11 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ubernaught,


Hi cephalo, can you explain that a bit more please? Why on Earth wouldn't you want the choice? Cohesive integrity, as you say, would surely be maintained if you never chose the one you didn't like?

In my opinion, this question is fundamental to the game. How you present the players role will decide how you design nearly everything else. I think that you are basically talking about two different games over this question. If the designers want to control the atmosphere and the pacing, by allowing both as an option I believe there is a danger that both will end up clunky and unpolished.

Let me try an analogy. If you try to make a movie from one characters point of view, and then try to make the same movie from a different characters point of view, you aren't going to be able to use all the same footage that you had. You are almost certainly going to have to work twice as hard, because really you are making two movies.

I'm not sure I'm making sense, but I believe that there is a sacrifice to be made if you try to give a fundamental choice like that.

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February 5, 2010 2:13:16 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Anomander,
The danger with the Yes vote, me included, is will players then wrap their sovereigns in cotton wool. Never exposing them to danger. This may lead to boring games, or games that quickly turn into King killing games. Strategy may go out the window!

There should always be a good balance of risk vs. reward. Sovereign's should be powerful enough that there are strong motivations to get him into the action, but not so over-riding that a player is forced to.

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February 5, 2010 10:50:44 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

As far as I know they haven't gone back on the decision to keep Sovereign Death = Game Over. It does bring to mind the question though of why they put so much work and love into the Dynasty system if none of those children will ever become Sovereign's them-selves. In the long run the best thing would probably be a "Heir Option" that you would check at the beginning of starting a Custom game. Also by only allowing this option during a custom game they keep the integrity of Sov Death = Game Over for the single player game and ranked online matches.

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February 5, 2010 11:25:06 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

in Age of Wonders, among other starting options is "leader on map". If checked, you start with a hero that is you. If he dies it's game over. If you don't check it however, then you DON'T start with a hero and you have to lose all your cities to lose the game. I highly preferred to not have the leader in the game since it was so easy to power up your leader with DEF and RES so he couldn't die and then get a little ATT and go kill the other leaders. And that was WITH Warlods Mod that restricted heroes to ATT, DAM, DEF & RES to 5 of 10.

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February 6, 2010 8:47:16 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Raven X,
As far as I know they haven't gone back on the decision to keep Sovereign Death = Game Over. It does bring to mind the question though of why they put so much work and love into the Dynasty system if none of those children will ever become Sovereign's them-selves. In the long run the best thing would probably be a "Heir Option" that you would check at the beginning of starting a Custom game. Also by only allowing this option during a custom game they keep the integrity of Sov Death = Game Over for the single player game and ranked online matches.

I agree with Raven X here, it would work very well with an "heir option" in sandbox mode only. Then the backstory and the campaign could stay the same, and it wouldn't interfere with ranked online games either. 

It was pointed out earlier that only the sovereign you start with has the ability to channel life back into the world, but this is not a problem: just let the heir inherit this power and any remaining essence. It was proposed already, e.g. this post on Sovereign succession: http://forums.elementalgame.com/372235 

This would be a real dynasty system, where the key power (bringing back life to the world) is held only in the current Head of the Family, and inherited through the generations. For a very good example of this from literature, try Anne Rice's The Witching Hour, about many generations of a family with witching powers, the key power and family secret inhererited to only one in the family per generation, much like above. So it's not even a "gamey" solution.

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February 6, 2010 8:55:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

No.

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February 6, 2010 11:37:46 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

BWARGH!

Uh... ahem...

No.

 

To make it clear, though, I do trust the devs.

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February 7, 2010 3:13:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Raven X,
As far as I know they haven't gone back on the decision to keep Sovereign Death = Game Over. It does bring to mind the question though of why they put so much work and love into the Dynasty system if none of those children will ever become Sovereign's them-selves. In the long run the best thing would probably be a "Heir Option" that you would check at the beginning of starting a Custom game. Also by only allowing this option during a custom game they keep the integrity of Sov Death = Game Over for the single player game and ranked online matches.

They are using the Dynasty System for two things: create a sensible way for inheriting the land of another kingdom after its capitulation; and allow for a champion system, by using your sons/daughters as powerful hero-like units. At least this is what leaked so far.

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February 7, 2010 4:20:34 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Finneglot,

They are using the Dynasty System for two things: create a sensible way for inheriting the land of another kingdom after its capitulation; and allow for a champion system, by using your sons/daughters as powerful hero-like units. At least this is what leaked so far.

True. Those are the foremost obvious things the Dynasty system does. It does open the door for a lot of other uses though. Either way, I agree with Sov Death = Game Over. I never had a problem with that idea as You Are the Sovereign. When He/She dies it would make sense that your game is over. I think having the "Heir Option" for custom games would be a nice touch though. Definitely limit it to Custom games though so it doesn't interfere with Ranked Online play.

Quoting the Gorgon,

I agree with Raven X here, it would work very well with an "heir option" in sandbox mode only. Then the backstory and the campaign could stay the same, and it wouldn't interfere with ranked online games either.

This would also help be able to play Really Long custom games. A game could go on and on so long as you had a un-married child/Champion to take over the Empire should your Sovereign die. This could also make it very hard to defeat a enemy if they have a lot of children running around.

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February 8, 2010 3:29:02 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yes.

But i hope for spells like teleport away if hp below xx% and  cast heal if hp below xx%.

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February 8, 2010 4:18:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yes indeed!

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February 9, 2010 1:35:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

SupCom had that issue. Due to Sniping, the Supreme Commander was a detrement to your game. He died, game over and iirc he was required to make certain advanced Techs. Hide and Seek with what is supopsed to be your MAIN dude blows chunks all over the place. 

It was a very sour pill to swallow, especially if you were late getting into the game, a noob, only to get wasted before the game truly got going. Epic games quickly became Epic Fail.

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February 10, 2010 4:21:01 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I would say both, as in have an option.  However, I respect the devs choices considering the other awesome games they have made.  I just hope it would be moddable for those who would like an heir system.

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February 10, 2010 5:32:16 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

yes with options

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