[.264][Suggestion] Housing should be upgradable

By on December 20, 2009 4:14:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Zebgopea

Join Date 04/2003
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When I start out I can build kingdom huts.  After a while I've always been going for researching "Housing" which gives Kingdom House.  The problem I have is that then I have to destroy the hut to build the house.  It would be great if the hut itself had an upgrade option to turn into a higher level of housing.

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December 22, 2009 1:25:59 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree with this suggestion, I can't beleive nobody else is responding to it.

 

It's really annoying to have to bulldoze older buildings for newer versions of the same thing, buildings should be upgradable!

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December 22, 2009 12:12:03 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree, a good idea.

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December 22, 2009 12:36:42 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I had a wacky idea that it was just a matter of time before the functionality got added. I can't think of a good reason not to have it in eventually.

(Re lack of responses, might be that more folks look at Elemental Ideas area for suggestions and only look at the Beta thread when they want to post a bug or check other bug posts for details.)

 

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December 22, 2009 10:29:41 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Agreed with this suggestion.

I was surprised by my first couple of playthroughs that you couldn't upgrade housing directly.

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December 22, 2009 10:48:05 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The only problem that I can see with the suggestion is that the housing doesn't directly upgrade. I seem to remember that estates, for example, held fewer population but brought more prestige than houses. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Gameplay note: Why would you destroy the huts?

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December 23, 2009 6:13:56 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I still rather have them scrapping the whole housing idea. It's lots of micromanagement without any real benefits for gameplay imho. I rather have meaningful options for building then some insignificant houses that increases the population cap by some.

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December 23, 2009 10:46:28 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

... Gameplay note: Why would you destroy the huts?

A maximizer would want ever housing tile to hold the max possible population. Someone like me might forget to keep track of available improvement tiles and make it impossible to let a town grow to the next stage because the pop limit is too low and tiles that should be housing have other stuff on them.

I still rather have them scrapping the whole housing idea. It's lots of micromanagement without any real benefits for gameplay imho. I rather have meaningful options for building then some insignificant houses that increases the population cap by some.

I half-agree with this, but in these early builds there is a scrap of strategic use for housing because you can use those 'necessary' buildings to snake out towards a resource tile that you want to access. For no particular reason, I'm a lot comfier using housing for that than functional buildings like schools or barracks.

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December 23, 2009 12:16:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think if you are able to just upgrade housing to the next level than you will have a city full of mansions... which is absolutely ridiculous in they are trying to create a living breathing world.

The only problem that I can see with the suggestion is that the housing doesn't directly upgrade. I seem to remember that estates, for example, held fewer population but brought more prestige than houses. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

as i remember it, population increased with prestige to the point that a mansion was always going to be the best, for population and prestige. But i haven't looked at the numbers in the new beta, maybe they changed it?

I still rather have them scrapping the whole housing idea. It's lots of micromanagement without any real benefits for gameplay imho. I rather have meaningful options for building then some insignificant houses that increases the population cap by some.

Yes, I like the idea of having different kinds of houses in your civilization i would even like to see them in order to see how rich the people of that city are, but i don't know if i like building them myself. I just don't think its realistic at all to have only mansions in a city. And while the mention of the word "realistic" will make people freak out, tell me what RPG (be it Elder Scrolls, Dragon Age, or whatever) has only rich people in the cities? a living, breathing world is made up of rich and poor and this game should portray that i think. With cities filled with huts and hovels of the poor and slaves and manses filled with rich merchants or lords. That's something i expect to see in the world of an RPG.

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December 23, 2009 1:26:28 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think if you are able to just upgrade housing to the next level than you will have a city full of mansions... which is absolutely ridiculous in they are trying to create a living breathing world.

Well, that's a darned good point. I'm not a maximizer, but I've read lots of their talk on the GC2 boards. I don't oppose the idea of abstracting/automating the housing to cut a 'micro burden,' but (so far) I don't mind doing it myself.

If we do keep on building housing ourselves, I'd really like to see the structure types have some meaningful differences that would 'naturally' lead to cities where commoner housing was common and aristocratic housing was rare. Might need something like divergent housing types, with mansions scaling to estates while hovels scale to houses and eventually some analog of a classical Roman insulae.

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December 23, 2009 1:34:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

On the subject of rich and poor, if you weren't allowed to upgrade, you'd end up with slums in the middle of your city. Very realistic . Then, if you're feeling heartless, you could raze your slums to the ground and build mansions all over it.

Another proposal is that you have some kind of partial auto-upgrade, where you can build any type of house anywhere, but houses near schools/markets or your palace get upgraded with the increasing prestige of your city.

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December 24, 2009 10:34:59 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The problem with the whole 'living-breathing city' argument, and the argument for keeping huts is that in all ways the next tier of housing is superior to the first: No upkeep, higher pop cap, higher prestige. Someone who wants a 'living breathing city' will not be able to reach the next population milestone, or isn't using their city very efficiently and will find the AI is most likely not as sentimental.

 

I kind of am starting to lean towards the view that housing shouldn't be something we build, but part of the natural growth of the city.

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December 26, 2009 11:50:05 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The problem with the whole 'living-breathing city' argument, and the argument for keeping huts is that in all ways the next tier of housing is superior to the first: No upkeep, higher pop cap, higher prestige. Someone who wants a 'living breathing city' will not be able to reach the next population milestone, or isn't using their city very efficiently and will find the AI is most likely not as sentimental.

I'll also be surprised (and pleased) if the devs mange to make decent AIs that can make 'sentimental' decisions, but it seems far too early in the beta process to seriously sweat the numbers for any unit or improvement.

I kind of am starting to lean towards the view that housing shouldn't be something we build, but part of the natural growth of the city.

Adding a second, size-limited settlement type for outying resource collection sites and fortifications would go a long way towards putting me in the no-player-house-buliding camp. In yet another game, I found myself helplessly snaking huts out twoards a resource I wanted but couldn't justify starting a whole new city to reach.

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December 26, 2009 5:43:54 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting GW Swicord,
Adding a second, size-limited settlement type for outying resource collection sites and fortifications would go a long way towards putting me in the no-player-house-buliding camp. In yet another game, I found myself helplessly snaking huts out twoards a resource I wanted but couldn't justify starting a whole new city to reach.

This is definitely something i want to see avoided, because that snaking looks gross but i have also found myself doing it

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December 26, 2009 6:19:24 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting RisingLegend,
... This is definitely something i want to see avoided, because that snaking looks gross but i have also found myself doing it

Beg pardon, but could you clarify your "this" there? Could be you want to avoid two types of settlement found, or you don't like the snaking even if you can't stop doing it in the betas so far.

I'm actually a little torn on the snaking. It mostly seems too 'gamy' in the game, but on the other hand, it kind of reflects the way a nearby-but-not-close resource can affect settlement expansion. Just look at what happened to US towns with 'centers' just a few miles from where an arm of the Interstate system got built. To us, that transpo is a very desirable. In my town, I-75 came through in what was the rural western side of the county. The rural eastern side has grown very little since then, but we now have what amounts to a whole new town all glommed around that Interstate.

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December 27, 2009 12:12:30 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

maybe try doing city improvements akin to the Total War series? you buy the capability for the city and the population adjusts itself according to governing selections.. tax rates, troops in town, etc..

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December 27, 2009 1:40:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Beg pardon, but could you clarify your "this" there? Could be you want to avoid two types of settlement found, or you don't like the snaking even if you can't stop doing it in the betas so far.

I sure can clarify  i was talking about avoiding snaking, i would most definitely like to see multiple settlement types found, it would add a depth to the game I think, I liked in the game Knights of Honor where you would have tiny villages and port towns that would produce income and food but unable to produce military units

And I def agree with your "too gamy" statement

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February 4, 2010 9:24:14 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I kinda like that, actually--city buildings (barracks and housing and such) stay the same, and you have a radius around the city in which you can build your resource collection stuff.

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February 4, 2010 2:22:25 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

As a compromise, how about if the new structures, those being more than one cell in size, be allowed to be "plunked" on top of an existing single cell dwelling thus incorporating that single structure into the new larger one. Sort of like a RENO upgrade where a second story and 700 more square feet are added to the old hut...

Or, allow huts to be built on the side/adjacent of roads thus alleviating some of the resource creep being noted. The road may not pass directly beside a resource, but if it cut the creep in half that would be a good compromise perhaps.

 

 

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February 4, 2010 4:35:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Wow, "necro"demain --->     I don't even remember this thread, but I seemed active in it... Anyways, I still agree with everything I said  I hope we can see city be natural and flee flowing. I don't want them to just be cogs in my military production... I want them to grow and develop based on their surroundings, much like what would happen in real life. If I have a city of 200 people, I am not going to have 200 mansions. Or even if most of that population are slaves, every housing development is not going to be a mansion, just saying...

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February 5, 2010 7:04:24 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Snaking isn't too gamy. I live in dallas and the city council actually did that back in the 70s. They decided the population was gonna boom in the next decade so they took these 10 foot wide 2 mile long strips of ground, bought them up, and used to expand thier control out to every water source in the area. Now they make a crapton of money selling water to all the citys that grew up around us. So snaking actually happens in real life, whacky as it may seem.

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February 6, 2010 12:15:40 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

So snaking actually happens in real life, whacky as it may seem

That's actually one of my problems with it for Elemental: it feels a bit too modern. Snaking like that and city walls don't mix well, for me anyway.

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February 6, 2010 1:27:49 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

That's actually one of my problems with it for Elemental: it feels a bit too modern. Snaking like that and city walls don't mix well, for me anyway.

True statement. As well as the fact that it just looks silly  Im still hoping to see a city center, and then outlying resource "colonies" as you will. The city is where most of the population lives, and military units are trained. and wherever you harvest resources there is a small population (village, hamlet, what have you) and then those resources are then shipped to the city by way of caravan to be made into the proper item.

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February 7, 2010 11:47:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Too modern? what about the romans? they snaked aquaducts all over the place. Snaking is a time honored tradition with numerous examples throughout history. Long live snaking!

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February 8, 2010 10:44:36 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

they snaked aquaducts all over the place.

I would love to have aqueducts (water supply in general) be part of the game, but I'm one of those weirdos who loves pretty much any micromanagement that isn't tediously repetitive.

The 'snaking' in Elemental is nothing like an aqueduct system. If anything, it's sort of an anti-version of how preindustrial cities connect to distant sources and then see secondary population sites develop along the road or canal. In the builds so far, it is things like housing, schools, barracks and whatnot that form the links on the chain out to distant resource tile.

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