About villages and castles...

And pillaging them!

By on December 16, 2009 9:42:14 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

dreeken

Join Date 04/2008
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Let me first express that I don't have much experience playing these sort of games, so I could be wrong. But I've noticed that most turn-based strategy games have many big cities and very few small villages. Also pillaging doesn't seem a sensible option; since both conquering and pillaging needs a massive force to subdue a big city, occupying after the battle/siege/whatever is far more profitable!

After playing Galactic Civilizations II I think I've come up with a very simple solution;
something StarDock has surely come up with as well, but I'll still post it here, just in case! 

Why don't we build a few cities (the amount limited by essence, or whatever -- but that's another discussion), and around those cities we can build small villages which function a bit like the starbases in Galactic Civilizations. These villages can be upgraded with techs you've researched (like irrigation, palisade, trade post, windmill, granary, inn, hunters cabin, saw mill, mining station, fishers cabin, etc) and they'll provide bonuses or resources to the cities nearby. Now you can invade the enemy kingdom, defeat the armies he sends to defend his lands (or if you can outrun him, you don't even have to do any real fighting -- making lightly armed cavalry viable!) and burn and loot his villages. Laying siege to a city is still possible (and if succeeded more profitable), but pillaging is much easier and it won't take as long as a siege and won't cost you as many lives. But it will still hurt the enemy economy and earn you gold and plunder!

Off course, it would be annoying if your villages get pillaged. And you'll have to build the village again, select the upgrades again, one by one, village after village. So it would be easier if the village turns into a ruin and after a few turns (20 maybe?) springs back to live and starts rebuilding again automaticly!

And by the way, I think villages should have very few slots (5 maybe?) to put in upgrades. I would prefer not to have villages filled with irrigation channels, palisades, trade posts, windmills, granaries, inns, hunters cabins, saw mills, mining stations, fishers cabins, massive stone walls, armouries, brothels, assasins guilds, etc, etc. This will force the player to make choices: Do I want to have a farming village protected by a palisade, or do I take my chances and build a farming village to make lots of food? Do I want to concentrate on one product, or do I provide my mining village with a farm?

The same story goes with castles. They start like a keep and they too should have few slots, so the player should choose between massive stone walls (bonus to defense), granaries (lasts longer during siege), armoury (increases damage), watchtower (increases line of sight), moat (bonus to defense), arrow towers (increases attack), barracks (house more troops), stables (lower upkeep of cavalry), inns (higher morale), hospitals (heals a percentage of casualties), etc, etc. But I don't think they should provide bonuses to your cities. Just use them to guard a pass or a river crossing or something like that. Of course, to be functional when used to block a pass, they really should block the pass! If the enemy wants to get through, they should either lay siege and fight or take a long walk around the mountains. They shouldn't be able just to walk passed them, they would be useless!

 

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Martok
Finneglot
vieuxchat
warrich
December 16, 2009 5:34:34 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

very nice idea

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December 17, 2009 1:46:49 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Agreed.  Excellent and feasable idea.

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December 17, 2009 6:32:55 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Very good idea , this is a really good way to handle "snake" cities.

 

I like it.

 

Warder

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December 17, 2009 12:18:31 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Black_Warder,
... "snake" cities ...

I didn't know that I was building those, but that's what the beta so far definitely does for me. As a longtime member of the no-city-spam crowd, I've been finding the betas so far much too sprawl-encouraging. Maybe the real trick would be to somewhat separate restoring lands, building keeps, and building other improvements.

Rather than have the game treat a population site as a 'city' from the start, maybe we could let player and AI choices on a given map determine whether or when a given locale changes from a minor village, 'mining town,' or garrison+camp followers site to a proper fiefdom that belongs on Elemental's analog to a city/colony list in traditional TBS games.

I've already seen maps where I might need to make only a single essence investment to get started on my HQ and then be able to 'snake' housing and other structures out to reach resource tiles. It doesn't seem that odd an idea to be able to start at the other end of one of those snakes and reach back to an administrative/military center for protection and connections to the realm's trade network. If the game had Settler units, we could use those. Or maybe resource tiles could be made to open a dialog box with a double-click and present options for investing in the 'branch office' population site...

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December 17, 2009 12:18:33 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I think this is an excellent idea to still be able to exploit the reasources in your territory without having to build cities next to every forest, iron deposit, or farmland that is enclosed within your borders. 

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December 17, 2009 2:09:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

This is a very good idea.

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January 16, 2010 10:19:09 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

/signed

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January 16, 2010 3:09:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yep, I definately agree.  Villages don't even need to be something that you have to manage very heavily--- your cities could be a sort of management hub.

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January 16, 2010 5:00:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It's just brilliant.

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January 17, 2010 9:35:59 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

As a card carrying member of the "I hate the current snake city system"-organization, I whole heartedly support this idea.

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January 18, 2010 3:54:28 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I prefer something like an outpost from MoO2. You put it on a resource and that's it, you don't need to micromanage it at all. The last thing i need is to have several dozen of villages to micromanage in addition to anything else that requires micromanagement. Or that village should be completely automated, like in Civ 4 (cottage>hamlet>village>town, automatic growth)

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January 19, 2010 6:39:03 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Great idea...

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January 20, 2010 8:53:25 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I fully support this idea.

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February 20, 2010 7:27:45 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

This idea has my vote. Maybe you could have ports as well? Coastal villages pretty much, but it would let you make trading routes over the water even for cities that have no coastal connection, as well as serving as a place to put armies on transport ships and such.

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February 20, 2010 7:31:00 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'm not sure I fully understand how this is different than what we have.

You can build outposts in Elemental.  You don't have to use essence to build a city, you only use essence if you want to build on dead land.

 

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February 20, 2010 9:26:16 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Got some ideas on this, but I want to think them over and write something up in the morning.  Just to recap,  here are the things I beleive we ALL want...

+ a fun citybuilding system where you never feel like your instantly hitting a glass ceiling (like the current 8 tile limit on outposts)

+ a system for quelling city-spam (we thought forcing construction on your environment type would cure this, but it already seems that it's a system that can be 'gamed' for massive numbers of cities)

+ goes with above, but we want worlds that feels like RPG worlds (fewer, more interesting cities) opposed to most 4x game worlds (a upwards of hundreds of cities in late game)

+ to ability to tap resources near cities without always resorting to 'snaking'

I think I may have a solution, but let me play a few games in my brain to see if it'd work how I want

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February 20, 2010 11:27:23 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Empires/nations are sprawling landscapes within borders.  While outposts are an excellent option, it would be nice for them to remain as such: an option.  Within these borders, you can find all sorts of interesting places that provide services to the nation and its cities within.  I.e. a large remote farm built in the shadows of a mountain range. These were commonplace, as they offered protection simply because of their remote and protected location while still contributing to society.

Building on Boogie's thoughts, something like this can be done.

- The location must be built within the borders.

- They must be built within X number of squares from a road.

- They do not contribute to expansion of borders.

- They offer a form of diminishing returns, such as a slightly higher upkeep/cost the further away from a city/outpost the location is.

- Optional. A caravan/trade route must be maintained to reap the benefits.

There are some strategic advantages that can be achieved by this, by both for the controlling and opposing sides.

Controlling side:

- The building can provide resources to different cities, as needed (trade route is disrupted, original city is lost).  Of course, all of the above conditions must still be met.  If the subsequent city is farther away, the upkeep would be adjusted.

- Because of the above, the loss of a city does not cause the resource to be lost.

- They can be placed in more obscure places, protected from view from your opponents.  They will have to search for them.

Opposing side:

- These can be tactical targets, depending on how effective the building is.  Either the building can be attacked directly, or the trade route itself.

Overall game effect:

- This adds a high "exploration" factor to the game, which gives it additional RPG feel.  Even if you've explored a location in the past, doesn't mean that in the future a building wasn't placed there since.

- This also adds options to the building strategy.  One (or few) large city with many of these remote resource buildings, or the more traditional method, only capitalizing on resource rich remote areas with these buildings.

- These can also be added as random "NPC" buildings when the map is created, and thus could potentially be captured, destroyed, or even naturally become part of your nation when your borders envelop them (they would still need to be discovered first).  The diminishing returns would be greater when this happens initially, and over time, would improve.

Anyhow, just adding my initial thoughts on this...  Personally, this would add a lot to the game.

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February 21, 2010 4:54:18 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

http://forums.elementalgame.com/376517/#2545911

My thoughts on all the ideas being posted on the matter of city building and expansion.

I agree with the idea of tapping resources without having to be directly connected to a city, but I worry about adding a system that deviates from how cities are currently interacted with (colonies acting being one upgradable tile with cities being multiple placable tiles).

Feel free to read over my novel of a post and let me know if it would accomplish the same goal 

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