Frogboy

Join Date 03/2001

+2408

Channeler Customization: Continued

…A few quick notes…

The point of DEVELOPER journals and the early Elemental beta is to let people, like ourselves, who are hungry for this type of game to be made the opportunity to participate in the kinds of “design meetings” that are typically closed to the public.

A typical BETA program in the modern sense is more of a late-game marketing exercise designed to help provide good publicity. This is not one of those betas.

When these developer journals are posted, the idea is to solicit feedback, ideas, and concepts from you guys. But too often, I get the distinct impression that people think that we are TELLING users how things are going to be rather than talking with users. These journals are not designed to be “previews” (unless they actually say that somewhere).

…So with that in mind…

In this discussion, we got some great ideas.

Here are some general thoughts on that feedback in no particular order:

Your sovereign (the channeler) should be customized in ways that are fairly unique. That is, you pick attributes that are not easily modified in game.
The presentation of customization should not be spread-sheet like but rather presented like we’re creating a biography of a person. After all, the sovereign didn’t just materialize. Let’s create a history for him and that history walks us through what he’s good at.

A player is trying to give a history to their channeler.

History

Mason. (provides construction bonus in cities he’s in, gains access to unique tech)
Warlord. (increases combat effectiveness of army he is with, gets special equipment)
Merchant. (increases wealth produced in city he is in, gains access to special improvements).
Bard. (increases moral of any army he is with, heroes easier to recruit)

Talents

Brilliant. Increases research in any town he is in.
Diplomatic. Increased diplomatic ability.
Shrewd. Superior at negotiating deals.
Lucky. Random events go your way more often.
Organized. Decreases movement penalty for larger armies.
Intimidating. Decreases enemy morale in combat.

Weaknesses (give points back to pick more items)

Stubborn. Is more likely to not escape from a battle that goes badly.
Unlucky. Random events tend to not go your way.
Blunt. Increases difficulty in recruiting allies.

These are some examples.

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Martok

This sounds fun! A game that tried this was Darklands.. You chose a character's birth status( noble, merchant, peasant) , and chose careers for them to take as they grew.

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Denryu

Join Date 07/2006

+93

Didn't Ultima VII have a system also where you were presented with a series of ethical choices that you had to make throughout your young life, they were either/or scenarios and the sum of your choices determined which virtue(s) were naturally strongest in your character? I'd like a bit of that, although I am much more interested in having a career in younger life that will bring certain talents to the game.

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Mythor

Join Date 03/2003

I like the idea of Background/History to your Channeler, but I'd also like to see an option that is essentially "No bonuses/maluses". In other words, "No particular background" or a "Jack of All Trades, Master of None" style background.

I think the History can also tie-in with the Weaknesses. Using the Mason example, you could be just an average, run of the mill Mason, which might cost 1 "point" and give you a 10% construction bonus.

Or you could have been a particularly adept Mason, costing 2 "points" and giving you a 20% construction bonus.

Or perhaps your father was a Mason but you just never had the passion for it that he did and as a result you're a "Piss-poor" Mason, which gives you an extra "point" to spend and penalises you 10% on Construction.

I could spell out the other examples you have there but I think the idea is plain enough.

As for some other histories, how about:

Swindler (Trade Treaties more beneficial?)
Gambler (bonus to find Gold/Magic Item chances, increases probability of assassination attempts due to the occasional bad debt)
Member of the Gentry (bonus when courting the laaaadies)
Jester (5% morale for armies and general population - "half" of a Warlord's bonus to armies but also applies to citizens)
Chirurgeon (bonus to health regeneration of friendly units, sanitation in cities (?))

As there's an "evil" Empire type faction, there probably should be either mirror versions of the "Good" sounding ones (General vs Warlord, for example) but also some just plain nasty ones:

Assassin (cautious by nature, less likely to be assassinated, fall victim to traps)
Thief (attacks on enemy units may result in bonus gold)
Torturer (Spies less successful in your territories, culture/influence penalty)

Just some random ideas.

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That idea really sounds like it would help give the game "soul". Great.

So if I am: Merchant + Shrewd = Frogboy gives me 50% of off Elemental??? Nope? Guess I'm unlucky too. . .

A suggestion: The cost of "Diplomatic", and the points you get back for "Blunt" might be based on the number of opponents in the game. If there's only one other player/AI, everyone will be "Blunt" and nobody would ever purchase "Diplomatic".

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Reminds me of the Tropico 3 demo's general creation. Not a lot to add right now except I'd actually find it quite enjoyable and interesting if you could get quite a few creation points back for advantages by taking some rather severe disadvantages. Certainly don't make them all that powerful in either category, but a handful of debilitating conditions for the tradeoff of affording more or stronger starting abilities sounds fun to pick and choose from.

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IMHO this is what made MoM so addictive, and the degree of customization is probably the biggest reason I prefered MoM to Civilization. Race customization in and MOO and GalCiv is one of the biggest things separating those from other strategy games. I'm really excited about the combo of sovereign and race customization and would love to see some helpful but not overpowering synergies available for sharp sovereign designers.

I also like the point a few people made about having some truly game changing traits, but would be concerned about one characteristic overwhelming others.

What about including personalities that include significant benefits with offsetting weaknesses, i.e. "Warmonger - increases attack of all troops built in city occupied by sovereign at the cost of defense" or "Benevolent - boost to morale at the cost of wealth," etc.?

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Denryu

Join Date 07/2006

+93

The cool thing is since this is being designed first as a single player game, there CAN be some unbalancing choices or combinations of choices. Part of the magic, I think, is playing enough to figure out some of those combos and how they can be combined into some overpowering and game unbalancing traits.

The worst thing about many of this type of game that is designed multiplayer is there is such a hue and cry that everything has to be balanced, that it only ends up making all choices bland. For me personally, after finding out the most powerful combinations then a different way of enjoying the game is seeing how I can do with some really crappy combinations. Maybe play some games where I randomly assign and working with the cards I am dealt.

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I loved that part of customization in Pendragon (a rolplaying game about king arthur) and Ars Magica.

But what would be really cool is to be able to "continue" the story of our channeller as the game progress.

Every 365 turns (for instance) you get a choice to do with your channeller (he is aging). (Maybe at some point in the game you have to make him immortal or you'll lose ?)

And the choices you get would be dependant of your "achievements" in game. You fougth 30 or more battles in that year ? Ok you can choose "famous" or "warlord" or "Don't die easily" or "scaring presence".

You built 30 towns in a year ? You can choose "loved sovereign" or "able builder" or "We are confident in our sovereign abilities" or "Farmer"

Etc ...

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Now I like where this is going! I particularly like the whole background story (nice idea Wintersong!).

One thing that I notice is that so far the list consists almost entirely of traits that, while appropriate to the sovereign, are actually applied to the faction. This is good - I like that sovereign traits will affect the kingdom to a similar extent as actual faction customization. However, I'd like to see traits that also affect the sovereign personally. Things like:

• Magic Proficiency: overall increased magic effectiveness for your sovereign (only your sovereign)
• Attuned to Air/Earth/Water/Fire/Life/Death: increases effectiveness in a particular element for the sovereign
• Artificier: receives twice the effects from equipped items
• Hardy: No movement penalty over rough terrain for channeler and his army

Things like that. Some of these could be pushed into the negative as well.

Now that we've got a decent list of passive traits going, I'd like to voice my humble support for 'active' traits as well. I know some people are opposed to them, but I think they'd be quite nice. There could be certain 'utility' spells that can only be obtained through sovereign customization, for example. Non-magical active traits would be nice too. Some ideas:

• Focused Magic: The next spell to be cast at double effectiveness for 1.5x mana cost. Prevents your sovereign from casting spells next turn.
• Involved Leader: Your sovereign can commit himself to a city's or national endeavor, boosting/speed but preventing the sovereign from acting or contributing to things like magic/technology research (unless that is the chosen endeavor).

These things are kind of hard to come up with, though. Active abilities tend to either be relevant for only a particular stage of the game, or too strong/weak over the entire course of the game. Balancing them against passive traits is tough, but I think they'd be lots of fun!

Also note: I hope the list of traits in the final game is huge! Once I really get into the nooks and crannies of the game I want to be able to spend 20 minutes deciding what combinations of sovereign traits to use this time! Also, I hope balance isn't an overriding concern when it comes to these traits. There should definitely be balance considerations, but ensuring that every combination of traits is 'balanced' against all others would be... well, probably fruitless! Make sure no trait is superior to all others (of course taking into account the 'cost' of said trait), but it's fine if certain trait combinations tend to synergies better than others.

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The options I find to be interesting are ones that confer both advantages and disadvantages. They add personality and can create interesting playstyles. For example:

Cruel reputation: This man is feared for his history of gruesome and cruel deeds. Fear, as it turns out, can be a powerful motivator. -10% population growth (from immigration), +15% building speed, +15% recruiting speed (cannot choose empathy)
Empathy: This man is unusually attuned to the feelings of others, which has lead to well-deserved reputation for generosity and leniency. -15% tax income, +10% population growth, +1 morale (cannot choose logical or cruel)
Burns the midnight oil: This man care deeply for his cause, and so consistently works late into the night, forgoing other evening activities. -30% leader fertility, +10% spell research
Chillingly logical: This man is known to take the most rational and effective course of action, even if it may cost a casualty or two. -15% recruiting cost, -1 morale (cannot choose empathy)
Warrior at heart: This man feels most at home on the battlefield, and spends most of his time preparing for war, to the neglect of other pursuits. -10% magic strength, +10% combat ability, +1 morale
Raving loon: This man's obsession with learning the ways of magic have left him somewhat disconnected from reality. -20% diplomacy, +10% magic strength, +10% magic research
Seafarer: This man has spent much of his life aboard ship, and understands well the ways of the sea. His understanding of the land, though, is much more limited. -20% Earth magic, -10% farming yield, +1 to ship movement, +20% water magic.

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This sounds like a very cool direction to take the game, especially since it opens up the ability for modders to add in new backgrounds and traits compared to the difficulty of adding in more over-reaching attributes.

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It is also important to make sure the map is generated with your sovrign in mind. If I coose a sefaring channeler and I start in a desert i'm just going to regenerate.

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To me it sounds like Race customisation for Master of Orion II, and since I love that game I am all in

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So far everyones been making great suggestions for various traits and backgrounds your channeler could possess to define him. But I think it'd also be interesting to give your channeler a motivation beyond the victory conditions. With that said, I propose "Ambition" as a category for customizing the Channeler.

Some examples for Ambitions:

Seeker of the Lost Arts: In your studies you've come across hints to powerful magics and artifacts that have long been forgotten. The lure of lost knowledge has gripped your soul and you've made it your personal goal to find at least one of these legendary lost arts. Benefit: When adventurers enter dungeons there is a chance they'll return with an [Ancient Artifact] that with time (research points?) can give the Channeler a unique tech or spell. Must have the Curious or Brilliant trait.

Naturalist: Life fasinates you, and you strive to better understand it. Your desks are covered in your notes from studying animals, plants, magical creatures and even your fellow human beings. Your life will simply not be complete until you've studied all living things. Benefit: The Channeler gains a quest to encounter all common creatures, and at least 1 (if not more or all) rare magical creature(s). Once this quest is completed the channeler gains a unique ability "Diagnosis", this ability will heal a friendly stack and make it resistant to damage for 1 turn, or damage an enemy stack and make it vulnerable to damage for 1 turn. Must have the Curious or Brilliant trait.

The bonus should be something the player has to work for, but is reasonably achieveable. Drawbacks could be incorporated for balance, for instance both the examples could give a research penalty. I also think having a prerequisit trait related to the ambition is important, and that more then one should qualify you for it.

Anywho, this is all I got for now, being 3am for me *yawn*

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A great idea - One thing to add to that though, is that you should allow for customizing outfit /appearance as well. Its one of the big selling points in practically every game, and if you look at forums about for instance games like Dragon Age, you can see people spending 30-60 minutes creating their character there as well.

While this is a strategy game, its also a game where your central character IS your channeler, and as such, you should be able to make him / her / it(?) look like you want to!

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You can create the background as in Mount&Blade. It's something like

You come frome
A noble house
A merchant family
A soldier family
As a child you learn
Blacksmith
Trade
Fight
Hunt
...
During the great war of magic you
Fight in an army
Learn enchantment
...

And yes, let us modify our channeler's look.
Can we equip him with weapons and armours as a normal unit and see the result on the map?

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Rather than points, why not make it a tradeoff between raw and focused ability? ie by default (no traits selected) you have X, X and X stats/magic power, where X is the maximum. Each trait reduces a relevant attribute by a given amount - if you spent your youth apprenticed to a stone mason he probably didn't teach you much about military tactics. In return, a trait will give you bonuses, access to special spells, units and technologies (maybe even tech/spell tree branches?). So the more traits you pick, the more you build your strength in one area while reducing it in another. You could end up with a General style character for example who is adept at training and leading armies, but reliance on temporal power means he's not quite as adept at wielding magic.

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I like it. I like it a Lot. Instead of re-posting what I posted in that post you reference though I'll just point you back to it to see the ideas I mentioned.

Actually, here they are:

Expert Channeler: Expert Channelers have learned to draw more power from the lands. They cast spells faster then other Sovereigns by pulling more Essence from the world. Increased magical power comes at a cost though as this Sovereigns mines must produce more Magic Crystals to keep up with the needs of the Kingdom. (-5% Essence cost for All spells, +10% Mana Generation, - 10% Magic Crystal Production from Mining Elemental Nodes) Cost: - 1 Attribute Points

Summoner: The Summoner relies heavily on calling Magical Beasts to his aid. By specializing in these magics the Summoner is able to call more creatures to his side then other Sovereigns can. Summoners do not need to expel as much energy to keep magical beings alive as non-summoners do. (-10% Cost to Summon Magical Units, -10% Upkeep on Magical Units, +10% Essence cost to learn Summoning Spells) Cost: - 1 Attribute Points

Archmage: The Archmage specializes in Non-Summing magics. Preferring to study the powers of destruction and the flows of magical energies the Archmage is a true power to contend with. As with the Expert Channeler though, the Archmage's Kingdom must use more Magical Crystals to meet the needs of the Sovereign and the Kingdom. (-10% Essence Cost to Learn Non-Summoning Spells, -10% Mana Cost to Cast Non-Summoning Spells, -10% Magic Crystal Production from Mining Elemental Nodes) Cost: - 1 Attribute Points

Artificer: The Artificer makes powerful artifacts to give his heroes the edge on the battlefield and in adventuring. Items made by a Artificer are far superior to normal magical items and can also be sold at a far higher price on the black-market, but would you risk selling such items that could give your enemy the upper hand? (-10% Mana Cost to Create Magical Items, +10% Power of Magical Items, +10% Essence Cost to Learn Creation Formulas) *Every Magical Item should have a Formula or Pattern that should need to be learned at least once per item type. I.E. one for swords, one for axes, etc etc* Cost: - 1 Attribute Points

Warlord: The Warlord raises large armies to crush all those who oppose him. By carefully managing his resources he is able to train better men and support longer supply lines then other Sovereigns. Superior training and better skills come at a cost though as the Warlord's armies consume more food. (-10% Upkeep Cost for all Non-Summoned Units, +10% Strength/Health for all Non-Summoned Units, +5% Food Consumed by Units) Cost: - 1 Attribute Points

Node Mastery: The Node Master can harvest more Magical Crystals then other Sovereigns. They achieve this by building specialized extraction machines that are far better then standard mining practices, though they are a little more expensive. (+10% Magic Crystal Production from Elemental Nodes, +10% Cost to Build on Elemental Nodes) Cost: - 1 Attribute Points

Magic Drain: Sovereigns afflicted with Magic Drain have a harder time then others when casting spells. Their spells cost more to cast. their items cost more to make, and they must study longer hours to be as magically adept as others. Magic Drain does have a upside though as with increased demand comes increased production of Magical Crystals. (+10% Mana Cost to casting spells, +5% Essence Cost for making Items, +15% Magic Crystals from Mining Elemental Nodes) Returns: + 1 Attribute Points

Flawed Elementalist: A Flawed Elementalist will corrupt shards of magic left throughout the world. These corrupted shards are not as powerful as normal magic shards and more of them must be used to give mana for casting spells. A Flawed Elementalist's Kingdom will generate more gold however to keep up with the demands of a flawed supply source. (-10% Magic Crystals from Mining, +5% Mana Cost to Casting Spells, +10% Gold Income from Mines) Returns: + 1 Attribute Points

Resource Hog: Resource Hog's have Empires which don't care how much of the land they devour to meet their needs. Everything they make is the best of the best, met to meet the needs of a society that must have the best of all things no matter if they cost more and do less. (All Buildings cost 10% More to build, People Consume +10% More Food, All Farms and Mines Produce 5% More Income)

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Yay Channaler: Origins!

Cool stuff, alot of folks allready brought some great Ideas so I'll just add some random thoughts.

1. each channaler attributes should be basically the same with 5 points to be added by the player.

2. When a channeler level up the player will have the option to asign the new points or the atributes that the player added points to them will go up.

3. most (like 90%) of the channaler customization should be with the special "Origins" traits.

4. Traits that give a certain bonus like Brilliant, Diplomatic, Shrewd, Mason etc etc should have the option to increase the bonus via reaserch or special events/quests/ what ever.

That all rigth now.

Warder

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Quoting Denryu,

reply 7

The cool thing is since this is being designed first as a single player game, there CAN be some unbalancing choices or combinations of choices.

You cannot balance a serious TBS. You can only balance a K.I.S.S. game. I think that the multiplayer community will be pretty big, which means that we gonna have many "powergamers" also. They will always play with the "best" available faction, they will always choose the best traits for their chanellers and they will always exploit the best spells / magical schools. There is no problem with that imo. It's working like this in Dominions 3. also. You won't use most of the spells & units in a MP game there, because it would be pointless...if you would like to win at least.

---

Quoting Raven X,

reply 18

I like it. I like it a Lot. Instead of re-posting what I posted in that post you reference though I'll just point you back to it to see the ideas I mentioned.

Actually, here they are:

Raven, those are very good ideas!

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Personally I would try to tailor my Channeler to how I intended to play that game. If I planned on having him do a lot of adventuring in a small party to find powerful items and such I would gimp his empire building stats (growth, maybe research) to pump up his supercombatant stats (attack, defense, probably movment). If I wanted him to mainly sit in town and cast spells while benefiting my empire building I would do the opposite mentioned.

Anyways, what I'm getting at is that I think it should be possible to tailor your channeler to how you intend to play that game.

A side effect of designing the benefits like this is you could have some presets that will pick for newer players to help them tailor their channeler to how they want to play so it isn't too overwhelming.

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Like I mentionned in the previous thread, while I like the idea of perks and flaws I'd really like traits like how they're done in Fallout, i.e traits that really break some rules or bring very unique abilities but come with a steep price, all in a fairly consistent manner.

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What about Channeler's existing family?

Social status matters a lot here:

First son of a noble house. (starts with some gold, will inherit an estate on father's death).

Commoner, Second daughter of a noble house. (bonus points for not inheriting anything - although second daughter can be fun with assassinating elder brothers)

Noble who already inherited (costs points, starts with estate, gold)

Also, I'd like channeler customisation to only affect him, so a bonus to army movement seems bad (in the sense it belongs to faction customisation, not channeler), unless you have to move with the army to get it.

So for instance Raven X's warlord and resource hog suggestions are more faction-specific than channeler-specific in my opinion and should belong to faction customisation rather than channeler customisation.

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The weakness of being blunt should apply only to characters that dont have that weakness also. If you are a blunt individual then you most likley prefer people to be very straight forward(blunt) with you too. As such, there should be a bonus at most or no penalty at least to relations between characters that share this weakness.

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Another quik reply

My friend designed an RPG system where you pickup character traits and background story events which translate in bonus and malus on stats and skills. But the most interesting part is that the player does not know the effect on the stat of each choice they pick up. So they are more likely to create more living characters rather than stat boosted characters.

[edit]

Also, the way the system is made, each trait increase at least 2 different things which mean that you would end up with a somewhat deversified characters (You might end up with odd complementary skills. Also, stats have maximum, so focusing will just give you more than your maximum which will make you lose points in the end

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