Elemental Repair List

Improvements

By on October 22, 2009 4:54:29 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

NTJedi

Join Date 03/2006
+38

This topic is basically where everyone can list current features which are being considered and solutions for improving them while there's still time.  Based on my many moons on these forums these are the current areas within Elemental which still have time for being improved:

 

A}  Stardock said most Weapon/Armor Graphics specific for only human sized units.

       *IMPROVEMENT:  Allow a feature so any existing image can have its size increased in the editor to be used on larger units.  Ideally a setting to adjust colors would also be helpful.  This flexibility will allow map makers to create many unique items/armor/weapons without needing knowledge of 3D image software.

 

B}  Stardock said limited damage types because there's no fun with other damage types.

      *IMPROVEMENT:  We need multiple damage types not only because of creature/unit mythology, but also because of the multiple terrain types.  First the importance of poison damage allows for a slow death instead of the usual  *wack*  units dead...  this slow death also adds fun giving the player a chance to still save the unit.  Second cold/ice damage can have the effect to slow targets caused by freezing. Third fire damage can not only hurt the unit, but can also damage many types of equipment such as clothing, clubs, wooden shields, etc., etc., .  Fourth lightning damage is instant and cannot be dodged like an iceball or fireball and causing a short stun effect.  Fifth is the mental damage type which are attacks to the mind... several possible effects. 

 

C} Currently the game has plans for only one single map level....  the surface.

     *IMPROVEMENT:  We want the option for multiple map levels to match the different realms which may exist in a fantasy realm.   PLEASE  allow us to build and have battles on multiple map levels such as underwater, in the clouds, myrror realm, underworld, etc., etc., .  In a fantasy world it should be possible for armies to travel underwater, castles floating in the clouds and escaping from prisons in the underworld.

 

D} Currently the game only gives units  Attack, Defense, Hitpoints, and speed.

     *IMPROVEMENT:  Allow modding where gamers can add more unit statistics such as strength, intelligence and precision.  While those 4 statistics work for human units there's unit creation problems for mythical creatures such as a gelatinous cube, pixie, sprite, Saurons immobile eye, hydra, etc., etc., .

 

 E} Sovereign dying equals game over non-negotiable.

    *IMPROVEMENT:  Allow a game option on different death settings... don't force feed your customers because some won't like the food!  When you walk into a restaurant the waiter doesn't say order fish along with any appetizer, but you will eat fish.  Multiple options for critical game features such as winning and losing are important for customer satisfaction.

 

 

   I'm worried the game Elemental is having too many fantasy features being pulled away.  I'm worried the game will become another version of Civilization, but with a few fantasy features instead of being a  'Fantasy Game'.  

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October 22, 2009 6:10:11 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ,
[...]

 E} Sovereign dying equals game over non-negotiable.

    *IMPROVEMENT:  Allow a game option on different death settings... don't force feed your customers because some won't like the food!  When you walk into a restaurant the waiter doesn't say order fish along with any appetizer, but you will eat fish.  Multiple options for critical game features such as winning and losing are important for customer satisfaction.
If it's a fish resturant he will.

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October 22, 2009 6:31:05 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

You should not be worried about the game being like Civilization IV. CIV IV is one of the top games ever made, and if Elemental comes close to being at that level we should all rejoice.

I even DEMAND that the expansion packs will be called:

1. Elemental: Warlords

2. Elemental: Beyond the Sword

Sorry about ruining your thread. Move on...

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October 22, 2009 6:55:21 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Very good suggestions NTJedi. I agree with all of these. +1 Karma for you!

Quoting joasoze,
You should not be worried about the game being like Civilization IV. CIV IV is one of the top games ever made

It's a good game, but it has some serious problems, such as the primitive & simple combat system.

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October 22, 2009 7:07:39 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tormy-,
Very good suggestions NTJedi. I agree with all of these. +1 Karma for you!


Quoting joasoze, reply 2You should not be worried about the game being like Civilization IV. CIV IV is one of the top games ever made
It's a good game, but it has some serious problems, such as the primitive & simple combat system.

The combat is not the main part of CIV, but I disagree that its primitive and simple. There are lots of opitions to consider in mixing units, terrain bonuses, promotions, upgrades ++. Its quite elegant in my opinion. Ofcouse they should consider more real armies and not one by one combat for CIV V, but battles in CIV IV is like a little minigame that I enjoy.

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October 22, 2009 7:17:28 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting joasoze,



Quoting Tormy-,
reply 3
Very good suggestions NTJedi. I agree with all of these. +1 Karma for you!


Quoting joasoze, reply 2You should not be worried about the game being like Civilization IV. CIV IV is one of the top games ever made
It's a good game, but it has some serious problems, such as the primitive & simple combat system.


The combat is not the main part of CIV, but I disagree that its primitive and simple. There are lots of opitions to consider in mixing units, terrain bonuses, promotions, upgrades ++. Its quite elegant in my opinion. Ofcouse they should consider more real armies and not one by one combat for CIV V, but battles in CIV IV is like a little minigame that I enjoy.

Aha, so when a warrior beats the cr*p out of a tank it's ok. You reload the game, and the same warrior gets killed by the tank easily. You reload again, and the warrior kills the tank again. So this system isn't primitive & dumbed down you say? It's an RNG based piece of cr*p to be honest.

This is why we will need to have damage types in Elemental for example. I don't want to see a primitive system in this game. [IE: Having ATT/DEF/SPEED attribs only is NOT enough.]

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October 22, 2009 10:13:41 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Excellent ideas Jedi. Most Excellent indeed.

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October 22, 2009 10:55:58 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ,

C} Currently the game has plans for only has one single map level....  the surface.

     *IMPROVEMENT:  We want the option for multiple map levels to match the different realms which may exist in a fantasy realm.   PLEASE  allow us to build and have battles on multiple map levels such as underwater, in the clouds, myrror realm, underworld, etc., etc., .  In a fantasy world it should be possible for armies to travel underwater, castles floating in the clouds and escaping from prisons in the underworld.

I want to emphasize this one. Even if Stardock's own maps only use a single level, please make the map format allow for multiple levels, and for a teleportation option activated on someone moving onto a tile. That will allow people using the map designer to make maps with multiple levels. (It also has the advantage of letting SD change their minds later if they want multi level maps, since the game already supports it.)

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October 22, 2009 11:28:28 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tormy-,


Aha, so when a warrior beats the cr*p out of a tank it's ok. You reload the game, and the same warrior gets killed by the tank easily. You reload again, and the warrior kills the tank again. So this system isn't primitive & dumbed down you say? It's an RNG based piece of cr*p to be honest.

This is why we will need to have damage types in Elemental for example. I don't want to see a primitive system in this game. [IE: Having ATT/DEF/SPEED attribs only is NOT enough.]

 

Dude, it's not like every battle is a pure dice roll.  There are different stats that effect the outcome of the battle, but not entirely. Should a tank lose to a warrior, probably not, but it only happens when the tank has like 0.1 HP left. And in the end, you still have to have some luck invloved or it becomes a pure math calculation.

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October 22, 2009 11:34:27 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

E} Sovereign dying equals game over non-negotiable.

*IMPROVEMENT: Allow a game option on different death settings... don't force feed your customers because some won't like the food! When you walk into a restaurant the waiter doesn't say order fish along with any appetizer, but you will eat fish. Multiple options for critical game features such as winning and losing are important for customer satisfaction.

While I'll never gripe about having more options,  I don't understand why so many people are against the Sovereign dying = game over thing.  In terms of strategy it gives you something that is absolutely necessary to protect which makes using your most powerful unit an actual decision.  It makes tactics like assassination more meaningful than the bland amass army, take city/resource, repeat.   On the other hand I do know how unbelievably frustrating it is to get the unexpected game over notice while you're in the middle of commanding vast armies on the opposite end of the map.  It always annoyed me when my friends autocalc'd my wizard in AoW. As the defending player you had no choice or even advance warning that it was coming.   The attacker picks whether the computer resolves it or if you enter tactical in AoW which always made the loss extra painful since you aren't even given the chance to defend yourself.  It just happens.  It's more a multiplayer concern than singleplayer but maybe if they handle it differently people won't dislike the idea so much.  I'm not sure what stardock has planned in terms of having tactical combat but I think that if tactical is an option, then it's an option that should always be given to players whose Sovereign is involved in the battle.

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October 22, 2009 11:38:38 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Myles,

 but it only happens when the tank has like 0.1 HP left.

Um no, not really.

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October 22, 2009 5:12:03 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tormy-,

Aha, so when a warrior beats the cr*p out of a tank it's ok. You reload the game, and the same warrior gets killed by the tank easily. You reload again, and the warrior kills the tank again. So this system isn't primitive & dumbed down you say? It's an RNG based piece of cr*p to be honest.

This is why we will need to have damage types in Elemental for example. I don't want to see a primitive system in this game. [IE: Having ATT/DEF/SPEED attribs only is NOT enough.]

I would NEVER EVER RELOAD NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS IN MY SINGLE PLAYER GAME

Apart from that the odds of a spearman (strength 4) beating a tank (28 i believe) is rather slim unless the tank is already close to fully crushed.

 

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October 22, 2009 5:33:11 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I wholeheartedly agree.

Quoting ,

I'm worried the game Elemental is having too many fantasy features being pulled away.  I'm worried the game will become another version of Civilization, but with a few fantasy features instead of being a  'Fantasy Game'.  

To tell you the truth, I consider Elemental as Galactic Civilizations 2 without space, with spells, and tactical battles. I would say even more - as it is now, it's not only the magic (aka fantasy) but also the deepness of the game, that's lacking.

The fact I am not 'whining', but just sending proposal after proposal is that I hope Frog & Co. will make this game really easy to mod. I know that modding is not the answer to all problems and you would like to play a great game from the very release, but I accept it. I hope you will too .

P.S. Oh, and btw - have you forgot about one thing? It's BETA. There are a lot of things that will change.

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October 22, 2009 8:42:31 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting joasoze,
You should not be worried about the game being like Civilization IV.

 CIV_4 is not a fantasy game, thus as Elemental is being developed and we see the same single map level, the same basic unit statistics, the same all nations being human, the same sea battles planned, etc., etc.,   then it becomes a worry since several fantasy elements are non-existent.  

Quoting Luckmann,


If it's a fish resturant he will.

 

Actually  NO... 99% of fish restaurants will have main items on the menu which are not fish.

I don't understand why so many people are against the Sovereign dying = game over thing.

   The main reason is because the game will be more difficult to program the AI opponents which will have to calculate all the devious traps/tricks human players will be using on them.  I don't want to be creating an AI personality and spend hours just coding all the different assassination methods to avoid.  Human players will have a HUGE advantage taking down very powerful AI nations by one assassination.  While Stardock believes this will make the human players sovereign more interesting... it will seriously weaken the AI opponents.

 

 

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October 22, 2009 8:53:34 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Forum bugs on quoting... so I created a second response.

Quoting red1939,
  
P.S. Oh, and btw - have you forgot about one thing? It's BETA. There are a lot of things that will change.

  Because it's BETA is why I created this topic...  it's a recommended  REPAIR  list since none of these could be fixed from a patch download.   As time passes more and more settings/features will be set in stone.  This repair topic is to bring back the vision of a  'fantasy'  game instead of a war game with a few fantasy elements.   

Quoting Tormy-,
Very good suggestions NTJedi. I agree with all of these. +1 Karma for you!

Quoting Raven X,
Excellent ideas Jedi. Most Excellent indeed.

Quoting Tridus,

 Even if Stardock's own maps only use a single level, please make the map format allow for multiple levels, and for a teleportation option activated on someone moving onto a tile. That will allow people using the map designer to make maps with multiple levels. (It also has the advantage of letting SD change their minds later if they want multi level maps, since the game already supports it.)

Awesome...  I'm so glad many of us are on the same page.  

 

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October 23, 2009 1:38:05 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

B} Stardock said limited damage types because there's no fun with other damage types.

*IMPROVEMENT: We need multiple damage types not only because of creature/unit mythology, but also because of the multiple terrain types. First the importance of poison damage allows for a slow death instead of the usual *wack* units dead... this slow death also adds fun giving the player a chance to still save the unit. Second cold/ice damage can have the effect to slow targets caused by freezing. Third fire damage can not only hurt the unit, but can also damage many types of equipment such as clothing, clubs, wooden shields, etc., etc., . Fourth lightning damage is instant and cannot be dodged like an iceball or fireball and causing a short stun effect. Fifth is the mental damage type which are attacks to the mind... several possible effects.

Your answer is about making a variety of fun and useful spells, not damage types.  

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October 23, 2009 1:52:09 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting KellenDunk,


Your answer is about making a variety of fun and useful spells, not damage types.  

Poison damage, Heat/Fire damage, Cold/Ice damage, etc, etc,  are damage types.

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October 23, 2009 1:58:35 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting NTJedi,
Quoting KellenDunk, reply 15

Your answer is about making a variety of fun and useful spells, not damage types.  


Poison damage, Heat/Fire damage, Cold/Ice damage, etc, etc,  are damage types.

Fire destroying armor isn't anything like damage types.  Damage over Time isn't anything like a damage type. Lightning spells firing quickly isn't anything like a damage type.  It's just spell variety

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October 23, 2009 2:18:56 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting KellenDunk,


Fire destroying armor isn't anything like damage types.  Damage over Time isn't anything like a damage type. Lightning spells firing quickly isn't anything like a damage type.  It's just spell variety

Wrong... these are types of damage and all of them can have nothing to do with spells.   Fire damage can be from a torch, lightning damage can be from a storm, etc., etc., .  Each of these are a type of damage that's why the word lightning follows the word damage.  

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October 23, 2009 4:54:30 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'm worried the game Elemental is having too many fantasy features being pulled away.  I'm worried the game will become another version of Civilization, but with a few fantasy features instead of being a  'Fantasy Game'.  

I've the same worry.  I don't care much about man-vs-man focused TBS.  This is not the kind of game I want to play.

A} This is a great observation.  The game need this.
B} I don't think damage type is needed.  Status like "Cursed" as in AOWSM will work the same way.
C} Well said, multiple map levels is essential
D} If you r refering to the Dev Journal, I think SD is still considering the best alternatives.
E} Well said, I hate SD = GO as the only choice.

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October 23, 2009 8:38:42 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Climber,

B} I don't think damage type is needed.  Status like "Cursed" as in AOWSM will work the same way.

Was Cursed the same effect that Damnation gave out (I don't have AoW handy to check). Damnation actually did depend on damage type, since its main effect was to give enemy units death weakness. That didn't do anything unless you had units with death strike, which meant they were doing elemental death as their damage type, instead of physical.

You don't need a unit card to show 7 different kinds of damage, it's doable with abilities. But it seems awfully bland if there's only one type of damage (and thus only one type of defense) in a fantasy game.

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October 23, 2009 2:35:30 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

B } Hm... maybe my mind was sleeping & haven't say it well.  I meant I don't like multiple melee damage types like slashing damage, crashing damage etc.  I Like fire, ice damage etc, magical damage type.

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October 23, 2009 4:49:03 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting NTJedi,
Quoting KellenDunk, reply 17

Fire destroying armor isn't anything like damage types.  Damage over Time isn't anything like a damage type. Lightning spells firing quickly isn't anything like a damage type.  It's just spell variety


Wrong... these are types of damage and all of them can have nothing to do with spells.   Fire damage can be from a torch, lightning damage can be from a storm, etc., etc., .  Each of these are a type of damage that's why the word lightning follows the word damage.  

And you can still do those things without calling it a damage type.  Maybe my idea of damage types is different from yours, it seems we want the same things, but my worry is that damage type is typically considered to simply be a setting that determines damage output against a resistance.  That makes for boring gameplay  and makes having different elements kind of pointless, Think fire ice lightning in Final Fantasy, there is no real functional difference between  FIRA and BLIZZARA other than some monsters are weaker to it than others.

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October 23, 2009 7:20:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting KellenDunk,


And you can still do those things without calling it a damage type.  Maybe my idea of damage types is different from yours, it seems we want the same things, but my worry is that damage type is typically considered to simply be a setting that determines damage output against a resistance.  That makes for boring gameplay  and makes having different elements kind of pointless, Think fire ice lightning in Final Fantasy, there is no real functional difference between  FIRA and BLIZZARA other than some monsters are weaker to it than others.

It's a type of damage because the damage comes from the fire, or it comes from the poison...  these are what's causing the damage and thus each a separate type.  If the element damage types are done poorly then they will be boring, but if they're done properly such as including other side effects as well as integration with the terrain then the element damage types will be very interesting and fun.   Just because some other games have done elemental damage types poorly and thus no fun doesn't mean there's no hope in ever making them fun.

Desert warriors traveling across snow covered terrain should probably already be suffering from cold damage with a percentage suffering the freezing penalty at the start of any battle...  unless otherwise protected properly before entering the terrain. 

These elemental resistances and damage types are important otherwise we'll see fire elementals being hurt from fireballs. 

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October 23, 2009 7:28:48 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Climber,
B } Hm... maybe my mind was sleeping & haven't say it well.  I meant I don't like multiple melee damage types like slashing damage, crashing damage etc.  I Like fire, ice damage etc, magical damage type.

Oh ok, we agree then.

 

And you can still do those things without calling it a damage type. Maybe my idea of damage types is different from yours, it seems we want the same things, but my worry is that damage type is typically considered to simply be a setting that determines damage output against a resistance. That makes for boring gameplay and makes having different elements kind of pointless, Think fire ice lightning in Final Fantasy, there is no real functional difference between FIRA and BLIZZARA other than some monsters are weaker to it than others.

Well, my version of the idea included side effects as well, which made the different kinds of damage do different things. But you need the basic component before that works, and fundamentally lightning isn't the same thing as a sword and shouldn't be blocked by the same armor.

If your archers have poisoned arrows for example, you should have a chance on hit to poison enemies, which would do something (maybe provide a slowing effect and a stat penalty). Fire can set people on fire (and really  hurt catapults), etc.

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October 23, 2009 9:27:27 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting NTJedi,

Wrong... these are types of damage and all of them can have nothing to do with spells.   Fire damage can be from a torch, lightning damage can be from a storm, etc., etc., .  Each of these are a type of damage that's why the word lightning follows the word damage.  

Secondary effects like destroying armor, causing a damage over time effect, or slowing the target down, are not damage types.  They are secondary effects.  Damage types would be nice for letting, say, an abominable snowman be more vulnerable to fire than he is to cold.  They're not needed at all for having poison spells cause a lingering damage over time effect, or lightning to do extra damage against somebody wearing metallic armor, or frost to slow their movement and attack rate.  You just make a spell or other effect, name it "poison something" and have its effect be to apply a damage over time effect.  It differs from your ideal of poison damage only in that it will still work on, say, an iron golem or animated skeleton that shouldn't be affected by poisons at all.

I am actually opposed to seeing specific secondary effects automatically tied to specific damage types, if damage types are included in the game.  Some cold may be so intense that its effects are more like burning than hypothermia - think about liquid Nitrogen, for example.  Some poisons may cause nearly instant death from a potent neurotoxin instead of doing damage over time as they spread through the body.  Others may merely halt natural health recovery for a while, or paralyze the target, without causing any damage beyond that caused by the initial application.  A shock may go straight through metallic armor, or might be focused to stun the target (heaven knows I've been awfully disoriented after getting a bad shock more than once).  The point is, one size fits all much better when it comes to damage than when it comes to secondary effects, and I don't think it fits all very well even with damage.  I want multiple damage types, so my Lava Man unit doesn't take extra damage from fire in order to code in his vulnerability to frost.  Not so my fireball can set people on fire.  My fireball - or my ordinary torch - can be coded to do that without damage types.

 

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