Dude, where is my Resurrection Spell? (Wall of Text(TM))

TL;DR: Is there any kind of Resurrection in the game or what?

By on October 7, 2009 5:50:27 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Wintersong

Join Date 07/2006
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TL:DR:

Is there any kind of Resurrection in the game or what?

WoT:

One of the main concepts, which specific reasons are still uknown to us, is that if your Sovereign, a figurine in the map that can actually do many things included exploring, dies then you lose the game. We don't know what happens if it's an enemy Sovereign who dies: does his Empire join you? Does it shatter in tiny and independent Baronies? Do those lands fall into total anarchy for a time in civil war and unrest while the descendant of the deceased Sovereign fight for the reigns of power?

Back on topic, the dead of the Sovereign is huge thing in this game (hate it or love it). For purpose of this thread I'm going to ignore alternate ideas like the lineage one (I like it and would love to be able to play a non canon game with such mechanics... maybe a mod that doesn't use Sovereigns and just heroes). It's just about the Sovereign and death meaning game over. And resurrections.

I like the idea of contingency plans: be them structures, spells, trained personnel... If the Sovereign is so important, we need a variety of mechanics that can fit the canon lore, be fun, offer diversity and make sense. Specially make sense.

A Sovereign can is an special individual. Just a few of them inhabit the canon world (24) and altough they can imbue other beings with Essence and make them channelers, they are the most powerfull channelers that the game can have (only ones that would be close are Dragons... that altough they start stronger than a Sovereign, this last one can level up while the Dragon is "static" and limited in it's powers in comparison with the Sovereign). The Sovereign can bring life back into the land itself. Allow other creature to channel magic imbuing them with Essence. He can cast spells that as he levels up and researches will reach the point of literally shaping the world to his will. He is power.

What has all this to do with Resurrection? Well, if the Sovereign dies it's game over. Why? Obviously, because no one has the power to resurrect him. Why else? And how is that no one has that kind of power? Maybe because the only one that could actually bring a body back to life and restore the mind (/soul?) in it, would be a powerfull in extreme Sovereign (as I said, the most powerful channeler in the world).

This could be negated saying that the Sovereign can bring the land to life (twisted or not) but plants don't have complex nervous systems or anything like that. They don't require to recreate a complex matrix of neurons and all the information in it. Yes, I sound very serious with this kind of pseudoscientific approach but that's my way of trying to make myself understood (I'm going to fail but I try). All that would mean that only a truly powerfull (and wise) Sovereign could actually try to resurrect anyone (but himself). So if your Sovereign dies, you ronly hope would be to have an ally Sovereign with the power to actually resurrect you (and the interests... did you know that your now Sovereignless lands look quite interesting?).

And that is supposing that any being in the game can actually make the miracle of restoring life, memories (and souls?) to a dead being (even if with strong ties to the Essence). Because if there is no being able to do that (even if hitting level cap of... levels and magical research) then we have a new situation: it's not just that if your Sovereign dies you lose the game, it also means that each Hero who dies is lost forever. And that's quite a big deal right there. It won't suppose the end f the game but it can suppose a quite a big problem to lose all those efforts invested in him and not being able to resurrect him. Which is actually fine for me but until now I had the idea of resurrecting heores as a staple and now I'm not so sure. At this point (leveled) Heroes become even more important than usual, which is good, with the potential of being frustrating to lose them. But life isn't fair?

But someone could counter: But Frogboy said once something about being able to create units like "clerics". Well, I don't remember that exactly but it might not solve it. We don't know how the imbue works. I'm supposing that when you imbue a unit (Hero or regular unit), you don't just give him some Essence (that will increase in each level up but not as much as with the Sovereign) but you can also give him a spell/skill based in the spells you already know (Healing Spell allows you to give a unit that spell, while researching Fireball allows you to imbue them with that spell). So if "clerics" are suppose to be as classic as in your usual fantasy rpg, that means that the Sovereign can resurrect and that your "clerics" can learn that too. Which makes possible to say that if the Sovereign dies, it's possible to resurrect him (if you have "clerics").

Unfortunately, it's not so simple. Maybe the Sovereign can resurrect other beings and maybe he can share that power. But maybe channelers can only resurrect being of similar or lower power (not just talking about levels here) which would make impossible for the "clerics" to resurrect the Sovereign (or a Dragon). Hell, maybe resurrection can actually resurrect anyone of any power/level... but only if it was recent. So if it happens during the battle, then it's fine (or end of battle if autobattle used?). But anything else is just too late for it to work.

Considering that I don't think that the Sovereign droppinig to 0 or less health in battle is auto gameover (he is special, give him a break!) but that represents him being unconscious for the battle and that he will survive if the battle is won, the previous idea could make some sense but we wouldn't be talking so much about Resurrection but some kind of awakening spell. The problem for myself is that I'm sure if Heroes will work the same or not.

And whenever I talk about bring back to life, (intelligent as if alive) unlife counts too.

Anyways, just some (incomplete) ideas that concerns me about the SD=GO, HD=??? and the true meaning of life in the canon world. If any of you truly read al of this, survived and isn't infuriated with me: you deserve one point of Karma and my thanks for just bothering reading something that won't (probably) matter in the long run. After all, this is pure speculation about something we don't know about.

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October 7, 2009 6:45:50 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

This is a pretty good explanation behind why Sovereigns wouldn't resurrect, I think. I know I've been a pretty big proponent of Life After Death for a sovereign, especially considering they are special individuals. There are, after all, so many story arcs based on resurrecting gods. What it really comes down to is the metaphysics of Elemental. What happens when characters die? Is it possible to circumvent death? How strict are the laws on death? These are pretty important questions, frankly.

Really, when it comes down to it, I want something fun that makes sense.

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October 8, 2009 4:13:05 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I don't see the point of ressurecting sovereigns. Why would you even want to ressurect your rivals? When killed, they should stay dead. I don't want to sit around and worry that someone's gonna ressurect that powerful warlock I just spent 200 turns to defeat.

Regarding hero ressurection, I think it should be very rare and very troublesome to ressurect your fallen heroes. If all it takes is a couple of turns and some gold, death becomes more or less meaningless and you'll happily throw them into the fray every chance you got. Hero ressurection should be exclusive to your sovereigns (no, go away you damn cleric) and it should take time, resources and come with drawbacks. Examples of drawbacks could be your sovereign being vulnerable for the time you spend ressing, your hero permanently losing stats, land essence being taken away, diplomacy penalties (raising the dead is unnatural, booo!) etc etc.
In conclusion; death should be avoided at all costs. Your heroes are valuable and ressurecting should be a sacrifice.

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October 8, 2009 5:35:16 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

While we are at it, I think that we should be able to resurrect the Sovereigns, if the player has the necessary special units. Example: Ritual of Returning - 3 High Clerics needed in order to start the ritual. Lasts for 10 turns. It could work very well as an option. [IE. Game setup screen -> Ritual of Returning as an option -> If the player wants to play with this setting, simply allow it.] Yeah, this is against the core concept I guess[..is it?]...but it would be good to have additional options like these.

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October 8, 2009 6:06:50 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I still think a good cooldown based escaping system that is partially counterable would provide the necessary survival for both your heroes and your sovereign without resurrection.

What I mean is a chess like subgame where if you want to kill the army, you move a more powerful army to that point but if you want to kill the hero or sovereign, you have to do more than that. That would allow the player to scout ahead and prevent moving into situations that are dangerous but still use those units in many other situations until the enemy achieves to pull them into a trap (or pushes them into a corner).

That would open up quite a lot of balance possibilities in that system and its counters which go beyond a simple resurrection price.

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October 8, 2009 7:34:35 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

But in the end it boils down to: is there any resurrect in the game from the lore point of view? If lore says no, we won't see it in game. If lore says yes, then it's a matter of knowing its limits because we already know that it doesn't affect Sovereigns (SD=GO).

From the feeling I get of the little we know, it seems that once someone dies in Elemental (be Sovereign, hero or John Doe) there is no way back. Ok, undeads are there but I'd take it more in a sense of bestial non rational (if not purely dumb) undead. And even if the undead entity had some intelligence, I'd bet that he isn't the same person as in life (aka is someone else in essence... no pun intended).

So if death is so a serious issue in the game, I'd expect to have important people trying to avoid it as much as possible. No need to reach the point of Liches but spells that allow swift retreats, artifacts to bound your essence to so you cannot die as long as it's not destroyed (but no undead here as it woulod mean death first which already said that there is no way back from it!), dark rituals to prolong life, mix of suspended animation spells plus mind controlling spells (so your original body lies in torpor while you life trough other peoples bodies)... Anything that helps the powerful beings with no wish to die to actually about a one way trip (aka Death).

In that sense, "Reincarnation" could work. Altough reincarnation requires death (which there seems to be no way back in this game), there could be some kind of magic that allows to body swap yourself when the danger is really inminent. So if Pepe The Great is about to die (but not dead yet!!!), he could use his essence to swap bodies with one of his Heroes (or just take over the host). In the end, we would get a Sovereign with his normal level, essence and spells... but the looks of the hero (and equipment!). The good thing os this "reincarnation" is that it doesn't really break the lore of SD=GO. It's also similar to other already proposed ideas of fleeing/scaping that don't involve actually dying.

And all those methods to preserve oneself could be used to protect your heroes. Specially the most valuable ones. To lose all your high level heroes at the start of a war is not something you'd like and to have some tricks to prevent that from happening is surely something a wise Sovereign would do.

And if somehow resurrection is possible (except for the Sovereign), it shouldn't be a joke but also quite serious and not common. Nothing devaluates more death than to be able to go back to life with ease. (and in case the Sovereign could be resurrected, it'd be equally difficult if not even more)

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October 8, 2009 8:33:01 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

That are good ideas. Those methods allow you to flee or avoid death in fun ways and they all can be attached to downsides or counters.

Like using another person's body to take part in a battle would require a suitable and suitably prepared vessel (which you don't want to just throw away) and limit the amount of power you could wield.

Fully taking over another's body as fleeing possibility would require a hero of at least some level and that loss is a gain for the enemy.

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October 8, 2009 12:19:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I still think there should be some kind of contingency plan in case of Sovereign death, but, it should be very rare. We already know there will be some things in game that will be very rare, that we won't run into or find in every game. One of these could be a item that can bring a Sovereign back to life just once. Maybe a powerful spell scroll, or a Genie that will grant a wish to bring back a dead Sovereign. We know Sov Death = Game Over though and Gameplay demands that it stay that way. Still, that doesn't entirely fit in my definition of a "Magical World". There should be a one time or very rare way to bring a Sovereign back Imo.

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October 8, 2009 1:02:42 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yeah, everybody has their definition of "Magical World" and it's a fact that you can never satisfy everybody (unless everybody = 1, in that case: maybe). That it's a different type of "Magical World" doesn't make it less of a "Magical World".

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October 8, 2009 2:00:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Wintersong,
That it's a different type of "Magical World" doesn't make it less of a "Magical World".

It does to me

You think we'd have Christians all over the world today if Jesus was never resurrected? Doubtful....very doubtful.

I won't be too disappointed if we can't resurrect a Sovereign for what-ever reason to do with game mechanics. I will be Highly Disappointed though if we can't resurrect fallen Heroes and Children or our favorite General.

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October 8, 2009 2:56:50 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Some people might not like what I'm gonna say, but...

You think we'd have Christians all over the world today if Jesus was never resurrected? Doubtful....very doubtful.

Sure we do, the proof is in this world, as Jesus never was resurrected. It's all just a fantasy story...

 

PS. Just in case... I don't believe in the resurrection, if you do and feel good about it, great for you. I don't and also feel good about it, so great for me. No need to start a flame war about this...

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October 8, 2009 3:00:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Scorpiana,

Sure we do, the proof is in this world, as Jesus never was resurrected. It's all just a fantasy story...

Personally m'lady, I agree with you. In fact though those who believe it Do take it as "Fact", not fantasy, but that's them. Most people who are super religious take their chosen religious mythology as being fact, word for word, as written in what-ever holy text they subscribe to, be it The Bible, The Quran, or Buddhism's Tripitaka.

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October 8, 2009 3:14:43 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

So in other words Ravenx throws out as a given fact something he does not even believe in order to offer up a soft ball pitch for any other Christian bashing atheists (oh noes we never bashed anyone we just said who could take as FACT these silly fairy tales?) and the Ravenx joins in as he and Scorpiana high five each other for getting a cheap shot on believers in (and of course they will protest their innocence, the never meant to be offensive /big eyes, innicen look/

There was no reason to bring Jesus or his resurrection into the conversation one way or the other. And non-believers are getting very adept (see previous 3 posts) at innocently injecting this stuff and then acting amazed at the ensuing flame war....please guys take credit where credit is due...

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October 8, 2009 3:40:33 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I believe in the ressurection, although in my version he was simply mistaken for dead and recovered....

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October 8, 2009 4:00:30 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Raven X,

It does to me

Quoting Wintersong,
it's a fact that you can never satisfy everybody (unless everybody = 1, in that case: maybe).

 to myself.

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October 8, 2009 4:26:06 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Denryu,
So in other words Ravenx throws out as a given fact something he does not even believe in order to offer up a soft ball pitch for any other Christian bashing atheists (oh noes we never bashed anyone we just said who could take as FACT these silly fairy tales?) and the Ravenx joins in as he and Scorpiana high five each other for getting a cheap shot on believers in (and of course they will protest their innocence, the never meant to be offensive /big eyes, innocent look/

There was no reason to bring Jesus or his resurrection into the conversation one way or the other. And non-believers are getting very adept (see previous 3 posts) at innocently injecting this stuff and then acting amazed at the ensuing flame war....please guys take credit where credit is due...

I do have beliefs my friend. I was raised Christian and I do believe in God. I just don't take everything the Bible says word for word. In my own personal belief I also don't think a loving God would send his children to hell for all eternity just for making a bad choice or two in the very short time we're here on Earth. I also don't put any stock in organized religions. I think we should all have our own personal relationship with the creator and I don't need a book or another person to tell me how to be a decent human being. Still, this isn't about our personal beliefs. I was merely agreeing with her viewpoint and her right to express it. Perhaps I did post in haste. I do think we should generally keep our personal religious views off the forums.

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October 8, 2009 5:12:45 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Raven X,



Quoting Denryu,
reply 12
So in other words Ravenx throws out as a given fact something he does not even believe in order to offer up a soft ball pitch for any other Christian bashing atheists (oh noes we never bashed anyone we just said who could take as FACT these silly fairy tales?) and the Ravenx joins in as he and Scorpiana high five each other for getting a cheap shot on believers in (and of course they will protest their innocence, the never meant to be offensive /big eyes, innocent look/

There was no reason to bring Jesus or his resurrection into the conversation one way or the other. And non-believers are getting very adept (see previous 3 posts) at innocently injecting this stuff and then acting amazed at the ensuing flame war....please guys take credit where credit is due...



I do have beliefs my friend. I was raised Christian and I do believe in God. I just don't take everything the Bible says word for word. In my own personal belief I also don't think a loving God would send his children to hell for all eternity just for making a bad choice or two in the very short time we're here on Earth. I also don't put any stock in organized religions. I think we should all have our own personal relationship with the creator and I don't need a book or another person to tell me how to be a decent human being. Still, this isn't about our personal beliefs. I was merely agreeing with her viewpoint and her right to express it. Perhaps I did post in haste. I do think we should generally keep our personal religious views off the forums.

Couldn't have said it better myself . And as for belief systems I could practically check mine off on your list.

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October 8, 2009 6:30:50 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree with you that a loving God would never do that, but the bible doesn't actually support the view of hell being a place of eternal troment anyway. The penalty for sin is and always has been death, simple non-existence. Many people mistake what the mainstream churches teach for things actually found in the bible.

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October 8, 2009 11:47:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

(dragons are static)-end quote.  Are you sure? im fairly certain dragons would be able to level, albeit not regularly since a legendary dragon would require something akin to 1,000,000 exp in order to reach the next level.

I have a pretty strong idea that dragons have two separate stat-gaining avenues. Age, and Level. Its easier to level the younger the dragon, although younger dragons are much weaker, so its a very large risk.

I suppose you could look at my previous suggestion that a nation can capture as many as 10 dragon eggs, although only hatch one (at a time) aka only raise one Civ Dragon at a time ... a dragon that is the patron symbol, or at the very least the grande royal Adoptee, of a kingdom. Perhaps only a dragon raised in such a way could gain levels?

Although with younger = more easy to level, this could very easily fit in anyways. As one would think, especially if granted buffs from the Sovereign Channeler, a Civ Dragon would have a much higher power potential than your run-of the mill enemy dragon. (except for well established legendary dragons .... unless you wished to sit and wait 1000 years for your dragon to also reach legendary status)

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October 8, 2009 11:53:15 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Raven X,

 I will be Highly Disappointed though if we can't resurrect fallen Heroes and Children or our favorite General.

Amen to that

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October 8, 2009 11:58:43 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting AIAndy,
I still think a good cooldown based escaping system that is partially counterable would provide the necessary survival for both your heroes and your sovereign without resurrection.

What I mean is a chess like subgame where if you want to kill the army, you move a more powerful army to that point but if you want to kill the hero or sovereign, you have to do more than that. That would allow the player to scout ahead and prevent moving into situations that are dangerous but still use those units in many other situations until the enemy achieves to pull them into a trap (or pushes them into a corner).

That would open up quite a lot of balance possibilities in that system and its counters which go beyond a simple resurrection price.

 

This is the best possible system to handle avoiding Soveriegn deaths I can think of. This is the very same holy scripture I have been preaching to the masses, although I might not have the Silver tongue of this prophet. In any case, if you can see the logic of this Nirvana, please say "aye" ....

 

(I still agree we should be able to pay a heavy price for our favorite general if the issue is not adressed, or maybe a rare once per game event, and the first person to quest to this mystical priest/prophet gets the ressurection of their choice, wether family member, general, or hero which has fallen in the past)

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October 9, 2009 3:14:06 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tasunke,
...dragons...

Dragons are a big thing in this game:

http://www.elementalgame.com/beasts.asp

I doubt you will be able to pet dragons in the game (be it because of eggs or similar) because it would devaluate them as "solitary creatures and powerful beyond imagination".

As to if they could level up or not, that's something we don't know (yet). But while a Sovereign starts weaker than a Dragon, in theory as it has been presented to us, a full leveled Dragon will be weaker than a full leveled Sovereign.

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October 9, 2009 6:01:30 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Wintersong,



Quoting Tasunke,
reply 18
...dragons...



Dragons are a big thing in this game:

http://www.elementalgame.com/beasts.asp

I doubt you will be able to pet dragons in the game (be it because of eggs or similar) because it would devaluate them as "solitary creatures and powerful beyond imagination".

I am not sure about that, but we shall see.

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October 9, 2009 6:37:39 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

If Dragons can be recruited like if you were recruiting Paladins, then they are no special but your "big flying unit with area attack". If Dragons can only be in your army if you convince them to join you (aka you cannot produce them and can only recruit them by some kind of quest that won't be easy), then whenever you make one join you, you get a true feeling of achievement, it really feels special and... fits what Frogboy has been describing.

If dragons become common (hey, dragonriders are cool) they are no longer special. And surely, they wouldn't be "powerful beyond imagination" (imagine the balance issues if someone has the econmy machine adecuate to mass produce them).

And if we suppose that you can have your own baby dragon (you found the egg or was given as present by a dragon...), then it should take an eternity to make it mature. Yeah, magic could be used to accelerate it but there are problems...

Nah, it simply it's not the feeling that Stardock wants to give to Dragons. But unless Frogboy states it as "non-negotiable"...

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October 9, 2009 9:12:26 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Wintersong,
If Dragons can only be in your army if you convince them to join you (aka you cannot produce them and can only recruit them by some kind of quest that won't be easy), then whenever you make one join you, you get a true feeling of achievement, it really feels special and... fits what Frogboy has been describing.

This is what I was thinking about.

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October 9, 2009 3:27:00 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

In the more elaborate posts I have built up around dragons, the process of getting your own dragon would require having the necessary know-how/ technology ... for knowing how to hatch a dragon's egg, and in order to gain the respect of a Dragon as it grows in age, size, and hunger/greed (and power).

Also, a given faction could only own one dragon ... basically given the option to hire a dragon at exorbitant cost, or to go on a grande quest for a dragon's egg. Getting the egg would require to defeat a very powerful dragon, which would be no easy feat.

Also, raising the dragon to maturity would take the REST OF THE GAME!! ... I think I mentioned 1000 years in one of my posts. The only upside is that you may get to level the dragon, and nurture its development in a certain direction (gain certain dragon specific feats over others? since they can channel, gain certain spells?) Also, even a dragon in such a way would not be as powerful as a fully levelled sovereign, although I have already stated that the Dragon would only be exeeded in importance by the Sovereign.

I have NEVER said that you can "produce" dragons, nor have I hinted at having more than 1. At one time, I even mentioned having a religion founded upon a certain draconic type.

I have however mentioned plurals of lesser beasts of Draconic origin ... which include Half-Dragon lizardmen and Archangels. Their might be a total of 4 dragons on the map, out of a possible 8 races or so ... and the chromatic/metallic races of lizardmen and archangels would be restricted to the type of dragons currently on the map (although if the Red Dragon were killed, the red lizardmen tribe would still hang around ... in the hopes that someone hatches and raises the egg of the Red Dragon (viciously guarded somewhere in the Red Dragons lair or otherwise). Red Archangels would probably return to alternate planes of existence with a closer connection to living Red Dragons. Archangels would be powerful magical entities, who would either live deep within dungeons or have to be accessed from alternate planes of reality.

however ... if in the dungeons of a dragon there happend to be lesser drakes wandering around, there is no reason a sufficiently levelled beast master couldn't have a percent chance of controlling said lesser beast through a form of mind control after their defeat in combat.

Also, its possible to have a wild colony of 10 wyverns, or something, and if you attack them, you could maybe enslave 3-6 of them, and have that many wyvern riders. Or something similar. Although, enslaving wyverns instead of befriending wyverns would only grant you the Ire of a dragon. Also, depending on wyvern type, and dragon attitude, a dragon might not appreciate working with wyverns, and thus require a higher price to join, or a flat refusal. (even if wyverns are simply a bug on the wall compared to their draconic might)

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