SD plans for MP (europeans take note)

By on August 27, 2009 5:59:19 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

mrlarone

Join Date 09/2007
+11

"Even more specifically, it’s almost always some DSL user in Europe who gets 600kb/sec downloads but some tiny number uploaded... We plan to develop tools for Elemental that will let people know their upload speeds. In that game, we plan to be total bastards and simply not let people play online MP if they have low-end connections." - Frogboy (http://forums.demigodthegame.com/362335/page/1/#2351677)

this has simply left me with wtf!?

 

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August 27, 2009 7:14:51 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

If you have a bad connection you won't be able to play online. The only difference is that unlike most games which let you figure this out once the game has started, Elemental won't give you the chance to ruin a multiplayer game.

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August 27, 2009 7:22:49 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I want a definition on what tiny number is.  A lot of Americans have tiny numbers as well, due to ISP gouging.

 

This system will not be fair to many parts of the world.  On top of that, I'd say latency wouldn't be nearly as important in a turn-based game then a real-time game.  Doing this for Demigod is fine, a fighting game would make even better sense (this is why PSN sucks for fighting games BTW)  The concept is fine.  I just really don't think it's needed for Elemental, and I want a hard number on what the mimimum standard will be.

 

Seriously, this worries me, and I'd like some hard information on what a low-end connection is.  If my connection was considered low-end, I'd probably take action.  (I don't think it is, but I want confirmation)

 

BTW in NC, uploads are capped at about 40kb/sec it seems.  At work I get about 15kb/sec due to Clearwire.

 

Let me be on record right now as saying I think this will be something that will hurt your guys reputation if you go through with this, and deservedly so.

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August 27, 2009 7:40:13 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

In a turn-based game, I really can't see upstream bandwidth being a big problem (beyond any mod element exchange system, which may be what they're talking about).  Some games are latency or bandwidth critical, but I really can't see Elemental being a game like that.

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August 27, 2009 7:46:20 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

This idea seems scary. Indefinite hardware cutoffs send shivers down my spinal column.

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August 27, 2009 7:55:49 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It's not really 'hardware', just 'performance'.  People trying to play modern games on crap connections ARE really annoying (at least in latency/throughput critical games), but if they're saying '128kbit/s up means no multi for you' they're just going to piss a whole lot of people off. 

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August 27, 2009 8:05:46 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Including most Americans.   If anything US upload speed is worse then Europe, and SD is not going to piss off Americans that way.  This is why I think the minimum number will be something really low, like dialup speed  On top of that, the broadband industry in the US is trying to cap uploads even further in the name of anti-piracy (really it's about profit gouging)

 

www.stopthecap.com.  Stardock needs to get on board with this- as it could kill Impulse and Steam if this happens.  Effectively corporations would put a 50% surcharge on direct downloads.  Aussies already have this crap.

 

On top of this, how important is latency with Elemental?  I can't see it being as important as it would be in a fighting game.  (maybe Stardock should look into GGPO netcode if I'm wrong- unsure if it would work with a game like this though)

However, this news does scare me, and I want hard clarification.

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August 27, 2009 8:19:40 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I predict this will last approximately 15 minutes in beta.

You would need a truly terrible connection for a turn based game to even notice it. I'm talking cellular modem at the edge of coverage terrible.

There's no way a game like this should require fat pipes and <50ms latency to play smoothly, it wouldn't make any sense at all.

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August 27, 2009 8:51:03 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Hopefully it doesn't make it out of Alpha, at least for Elemental.   Other games, I can buy this, and yes, I know how annoying it can be, as I am an avid fighting game player- which is the least lag-tolerant genre out there.

The main reason I got a 360 over a PS3 for fighting games, despite 360's not being the approved standard, was because PS3 allows wireless connections, which makes many matches laggy as hell over PSN.

That said, the GGPO netcode idea, if it can work outside of fighting games, it's a cheap network code engine, that has been used in a couple of fighters (STHD and Blazblue) ,which smokes other fighting game netcodes.  I'm unsure if it would work in other circumstances, but if it did, Stardock would be smart to look into it.  It would also be fairly easy to contact the owner as well and see what it could do.

For a game like Demigod, I can see a need for this, though it should be an option.  Elemental shouldn't need it nearly as much.

 

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August 27, 2009 8:51:04 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Myles,
If you have a bad connection you won't be able to play online. The only difference is that unlike most games which let you figure this out once the game has started, Elemental won't give you the chance to ruin a multiplayer game.

Excellent I can't count all the times I got disconnected from MP games because some idiot just had to log in on dial-up. grrrrrr

Let me be on record right now as saying I think this will be something that will hurt your guys reputation if you go through with this, and deservedly so.

I don't since SD is well known for making great SOLO games so this muliplayer element is really just a nicety not really a feature like most other MP games. For the majority it's not going to be important at all.

I'm really rather against them making a MP elment of it in the first place. But, it's their design and their baby. But, they've survived this long in the turn based strategy gaming portion of it without it. So why mess with something that isn't broken?

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August 27, 2009 9:09:39 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It's a feature whether you like it or not.  Honestly, if I knew that the game would not let me play MP because the best connection I can get here wouldn't be good enough, especially when I know for more latency-demanding games it is, I would not buy the game.

 

 

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August 27, 2009 9:12:57 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Frankly, regardless of whether someone wants MP or not, saying your game has 'MP... if you pay enough for your connection' is going to leave a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths.  It's probably begging for negative press, too.

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August 27, 2009 9:31:09 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

so i've calmed down and reflected since i first posted.

i think i was just in shock when i read frogboy say "we plan to be total bastards" ... say it ain't so   

having gone through demigod beta and release i can fully appriciate his frustration with connectivity issues.

though i don't see the need for a hard coded limit if there's a plan to show peoples upload speeds, why not let people decide if they want to play together or not?

so what's the planned limit?

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August 27, 2009 9:36:22 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Pnakotus,
Frankly, regardless of whether someone wants MP or not, saying your game has 'MP... if you pay enough for your connection' is going to leave a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths.  It's probably begging for negative press, too.

 

Problem is, just like was pointed out above, the limit already exists!  SD is just enforcing it.

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August 27, 2009 9:54:41 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

i really do believe this is just a knee jerk reaction to SD's first multiplayer experience, once bitten twice shy and all that.

the limit already exists is true, but for those who may be willing to suffer lag to play with friends SD is effectively saying too bad.

the limit exists and is self enforcing, providing people have the correct info (i.e. everyone's upload speed, ping, etc)

i understand not wanting to go though all the name calling over connectivity again but that's the nature of the beast surely?

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August 27, 2009 10:12:02 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Let us make our own judgement.  (as in , make this an option)


The one area where I can see enforcing limits is if you have ranked matches of some sort.  That said, I just can't see a turn based game needing this.

 

 

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August 27, 2009 10:12:13 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Hah Hah way to go Stardock let em eat cake.

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August 27, 2009 12:25:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

This idea seems scary. Indefinite hardware cutoffs send shivers down my spinal column.

 

The cutoff is likely for people who are so slow that they can't reasonably play the game. Its not like they aren't allowing anyone who might incur a little lag to play, but rather they are trying to stop the slowpokes from ruining the game for everyone else. I say good.

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August 27, 2009 1:34:42 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Hopefully they will show people's speeds in the lobby, if the host doesn't like it, then they can kick them. That way this only become an issue when you're not playing with friends

 

Or you could probably use Hamachi to play with friends over LAN.

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August 27, 2009 1:41:11 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Why should we have to use Hamachi though?

I say this should be user choice, SD mandated only in ranked.  

 

Stardock really does need to come down and clarify the connection upload speed they mean for it not working.  That would save a lot of people from stressing out.

 

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August 27, 2009 3:03:00 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Yeah I want slow defined too. My upload is crap, and guess what, there's isn't a thing I can do about. Even the highest outrageously expensive tier for Charter stops at 1Mbps upload.

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August 27, 2009 3:15:46 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I doubt Elemental will require signigicant upload speed. Due to the nature of Elemental I would think it wouldn't need as much upload speed as Demigod, with which I can run 3v3 fine with only 0.62 Mbps upload. Clarification would help to clear the air though.

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August 27, 2009 4:31:58 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It seems pretty unlikely they're going to demand anything remotely near 1Mbit/s up.  That'd probably cut off about 60% of the western world and there's really no reason they'd need it.

The point regarding bad press is that there are many limits that already exist in PC gaming like memory, GPU, etc.  Games still let you TRY, even if it sucks, and Stardock is even mad about scaling so that anyone can play their games.  If Corridor Stroller 2: Shotgun Massacre had a popup that said 'Sorry, you've got a 6600GT you can't install this game', people would scream blue murder and the game would be mocked throughout the review community and the playerbase.  Multi is a very different thing - since you can hurt other people with bad performance - but it still looks bad to say 'na uh', particularly without a giant warning on Impulse saying 'do not buy this game on dial-up' or whatever.  Hell, how's a dialup user even going to download it?

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August 27, 2009 6:03:58 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I have no problem with this if you play with random people. However I'd object if I wanted to play online with friends who didn't mind the lag and the game won't allow me. But I can't imagine Elemental using a whole lot of bandwidth...

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August 27, 2009 6:29:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Well let's look at it this way.

 

 

Who here has played team fortress 2? Who here as seen a play who's so laggy they're basically teleporting around the map? Who here has tried to fight said person and always loses? I'm not saying this would apply to all games, but it would certainly apply to a game like Demigod.  Basically people like this shouldn't be allowed to join that game

 

 

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August 27, 2009 6:40:17 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Considering this was on the demigod boards and we all know what that trouble was, I can sympathise with Brad posting that.  I doubt we would see any sort of stupid decision to kill sales though. This is primarily a single player game.

 

And the whole question and answer for context

Q: Has there been any progress on the ping-spiking issue detailed here (http://forums.demigodthegame.com/352593). A small portion of the player base (including myself) have put Demigod on hold, as we cannot play games with more than X (where x is a number between 4 and 8, with the median being 4) players in them, despite solid connections. Many of us have tested the game with worse connections in another area and the same ISP, and had no trouble running the game.

A: Ping spikes are almost always due to someone in a given game not having enough upload speed. Even more specifically, it’s almost always some DSL user in Europe who gets 600kb/sec downloads but some tiny number uploaded. Beyond re-designing the MP for the game, there’s no real solution other than for those users to try to avoid games with too many players.

We plan to develop tools for Elemental that will let people know their upload speeds. In that game, we plan to be total bastards and simply not let people play online MP if they have low-end connections. Some of those tools will likely come back for Demigod though because GPG are nicer people than us, we probably won’t be blocking users who have poor upload speeds.

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