Help Stardock on succession of vassal children (poll inside)

Vassal Children; Poll

By on August 26, 2009 9:19:22 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

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From  Kotaku  review of Elemental:

He(Brad from Stardock) did say that you could research potions in the game to make vassal family members more attractive so they’d be easier to marry off—but he wasn’t quite sure yet how the succession of children from a vassal marriage would work.

 

So what's the opinion of the community on what to do with the children from a vassal marriage?   

 

I'll post the results after a couple days.

 

Link to the survey:

                               Click Here to take survey

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August 26, 2009 10:15:29 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

You missed my preferred option for #1. This should be subject to negotiation between players.

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August 26, 2009 10:57:47 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Taken, and glad to see someone else doing the survey monkey thing - Good job!

 

I agree with Will for question 1, making it a point of negotiation is an awesome option. (and if agreement can't be reached it could even lead to war...!!!!!)

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August 26, 2009 11:08:51 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

taken

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August 26, 2009 11:34:00 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting WIllythemailboy,
You missed my preferred option for #1. This should be subject to negotiation between players.

 

Good idea... wish I would have included the option.

 

 

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August 27, 2009 12:37:00 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I took your quiz, and opted for maximum user input, however:

All of these things should be bound together, I think.

The soveriegn controlling the father of the child should get control of the child... TO BEGIN WITH.

He should then be presented with options in certain years (turns) as the child ages.

These choices can effect the outcome of the child's future, however, each choice should have a chance of failing. The more powerful the bonuses each choice gives, the higher the chance the training will fail. At the end of the child's development, there should be a roll based on how many times the child failed in his training. If he passes the roll, he continues to faithfully serve his father. If he fails it, he either 'rebels' to his mother's faction, or rebels altogether and joins an enemy faction, depending on how harshly he has been used. This would be the most fair, reasonable, and interesting to the player system.

It makes daughters less valuable than sons, as you are unlikely to control their offspring, but still valuable as diplomatic tools, which is highly authentic to a medaeval/fantasy mindset. It also allows the player to attempt to control the outcome of their progeny's fate, but does not guarantee success.

It should also be an option to 'do nothing', at each career choice, which should have the effect of giving the child a random talent, skewed towards laziness and worthlessness, but no chance of rebellion.

This system gives the player the choice of gambling on a difficult training schedule that COULD produce an ideal hero, but may 'break' his child's spirit, causing him to defect later, or to take a safer route and be content with a less stellar progeny, but one who will almost certainly serve. This seems fair, 'realistic', and satisfying.

What do you all think of this system?

 

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August 27, 2009 1:46:44 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The soveriegn controlling the father of the child should get control of the child... TO BEGIN WITH.

I don't think it should always be the father of the child who would get control, there are enough fantasy settings with a maternal society and I'd like to be able to play like that.

Allowing more choice for the player is almost always good. I think during the configuration of the faction you should be able to make some choices about this. Maternal / paternal society with some choices to go into more detail. Should the default heir be eldest child, eldest son / daughter, chosen by sovereign...

When a daughter from a maternal society weds a son from a paternal society, the negotiations for the wedding should include who get's to control the children. Sons go to father sovereign, daughters go to mother sovereign? Or first child to the father, second to the mother, third to father and so on? Negotiations with child, father and mother at the time the child becomes an adult? There are so many possibilities here...

Imagine you have a wedding between childs of two sovereigns. At the wedding negotiation it was decided that the eldest child would be controled by sovereign A, the others by sovereign B. After a few years, there is still only one child who looks like he / she is going to be a great hero and a great asset to the sovereign who can control him / her. Now, sovereign B can just decide to let it go, and hope for better luck next time, or he can try to renegotiate the deal with sovereign A or even try to influence the child to change factions.

This idea can off-course be combined with your idea to have choices during certain years to raise the child to become someone usefull. And maybe those choices could be influenced by the other sovereign... Sovereign A tries to raise the child to become a major hero, sovereign B sends the child a few casks of beer to celebrate his birthday giving the child a larger chance to become a drunkard...

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August 27, 2009 2:05:01 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

In the good ole days (unlike our present day socalled civilized fiasco of mother 99% getting the child) the father figure was ALWAYS the authority and as well it should be. I think there should be some "influence" factors from the father as to what the male child becomes, but, the child if it is a male at the age of adulthood should finally get to pick his trade based on those influences. Females on the other hand should not get any choices but to be play things for their spouses and become chefs in the kitchens and ho's in the bedrooms.

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August 27, 2009 2:20:18 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Well, I don't know about the whole degrading women just for historical accuracy part, but I do agree that it just makes more sense from a historical viewpoint for the father to have 'first dibs' on any progeny.

I think that daughters should have the option of being trained also, but in less warlike pursuits. They should be able to gain population growth bonuses, mana boosting bonuses, and the like. Of course, it would be nice if you could TRY to train them in warlike pursuits, but it would be much more difficult for them than for boys. The safest route for girls should be simply to 'pretty them up', causing them to givemuch better diplomacy bonuses when they are wed.

I like this sort of system much better than haggling over who gets which child from each marraige, as it turns children into an intuitive resource. If you have girls, you can lead them down a diplomacy/marraige path or a city enhancement path. If you have boys, you can lead them down any number of hero paths, but whatever they wind up as, they become precious to you as they continue the family name.

It makes sense, and it seems pleasing from a gameplay perspective.

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August 27, 2009 2:28:28 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

This idea can off-course be combined with your idea to have choices during certain years to raise the child to become someone usefull. And maybe those choices could be influenced by the other sovereign... Sovereign A tries to raise the child to become a major hero, sovereign B sends the child a few casks of beer to celebrate his birthday giving the child a larger chance to become a drunkard...

i like that Idea. A contest about influence on the child until he/she is grown up would be nice. The two sides could "invest" each turn (by spending time in the same city or by financing nurses, maidens tutors and the like). The child decides who it will afiliate with when it's becoming of age.

I don't quite see why males should necessarily be the dominating gender as well. I support the idea of an option at the setup if a player wants a dominating or genders treated as equals. That should really make diplomacy interesting.

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August 27, 2009 2:36:16 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I don't quite see why males should necessarily be the dominating gender as well. I support the idea of an option at the setup if a player wants a dominating or genders treated as equals.

But under the 'traditional' system, I don't think that males ARE the dominating gender. It is true that male children would inherit the birthright to future generations they were part of, but it is a yin/yang relationship. Females are required for strong diplomatic ties. They should give a higher diplomacy rating when they marry than males do. And since you would almost always send your female children off to foreign lands, they become liabilities to those who marry them, who are forced to defend them or suffer a diplomacy hit with your kingdom.

I would prefer male and female children to not be identical to each other. It is a good opportunity to instil depth and variety into the game. Male children mean one thing, female mean another. Each has an important role, and I think it is to the benefit of the game to explore them, rather than take a modernisitc approach and try to make them the same thing, except the female squirts out babies.

You will eventually get male children. These are the cornerstone of each generation, as they inherit offspring birthright. Even if they become powerful warriors, you have to fret over using them, because they are your ticket to continuing your line. That is part of the mystique of their role. Female children are almost like diplomatic weapons. They are the currency of ties between countries, you send them out for others to cherish and protect at their peril. Both roles are of vital importance. This is rich, interesting, and makes good historic sense.

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August 27, 2009 2:44:18 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

In Crusader Kings there is what they call a Fosterling ability. You can send YOUR children and the childre of YOUR court to another realm to be raised and vicey versa. This gives the "choice" of who raises the child and everyone can be happy. Myself I want to raise my own children, others would or might want to use the Fosterling feature. It also has diplomatic effects and can cause "rivals and friendships" as the children of one realm grow up with children of another realm. Then when they grow up based on whether they got rivals or friendships this can cause realm vs realm tormoil or realm vs real alliances.

rather than take a modernisitc approach and try to make them the same thing, except the female squirts out babies.

lolroflmao "except the female squirts out babies" lol

I do agree though there should be differences in male and female qualities in the game instead of the alien approach where they have all the same emotions and abilities except one squirts out babies. I know how about for a change the MALE has the babies in this game? And and and females have this longggggggggggg tubelike thing that comes out of their belly and into the males mouth and and and then he gets impregnated?? huh? huh? Huh? How's that sound?

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August 27, 2009 3:46:07 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

While driving to work a few questons came to my mind.

How will interracial marriages be adressed? Can Fallen and Men be married (or reproduce even)?

And even if the current scope of the game would not allow for marriages between Men and Fallen the subject should be looked at considering the fact that there will be modded races. And while marriages (and even offspring) between Elves and Humans should be uncommon but OK it would be strange to see the same for, let's say, Hobbits and Orcs. And not everyone wants an Ogre in the family as well.

On the subject of gender domination: It's OK to be insecure about your role in society but arguing with human (european) history seems a bit strange for a fantasy game.

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August 27, 2009 4:34:44 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Excelent survey. I was just going to suggest that the children should have a chance to go rogue and be rebels, but, this should only be likely if they are good and thier father is evil (or vice verses).

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August 27, 2009 5:39:45 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Nice survey, it touches on a bunch of important aspects of child care in a monarchy type government.

I'd say give the player maximum control since he is, in effect, the all-powerful ruler that decides everything. Though one thing I'd like to see is that children have their own preferences on what they want to do. There are a few ways to implement their wants.

Maybe this can be "hidden" in their stats: High intelligence will have them excel at intellectual persuits like magic, governing. Charisma at leadership etc etc so you would have to read out whatever they would be good at and assume they would like such a career. This might be a bit easy after you work out what combination of stats are best for. Perhaps the children have their own personal likes and dislikes but they can be tempered by the success they are having with whatever you tell them to do.

Another thing I'd really like to see is a sytem of traits that were in the Total War games. They were pretty awesome and helped differentiate your family members. But perhaps if you favour one of your two children, the other will become jealous and have a slightly higher chance to rebel. The stats themselves could also have a bearing on loyality. One child might not like what you tell him/her to do but because of a high Loyalty value, or sense of patriotism, he/she will respect your wishes for the betterment of the nation.

It's certainly a potentially complicated system and there's need for simplicity and the ability to keep a good overview of everyone. But I think with a few features to make children dynamic, it could be quite fun.

 

Of course an option to turn off children rebellion might be good for those people that just want to focus on a more warlike/traditional RTS approach.  

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August 27, 2009 5:42:05 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Good Survey, I think it would be quite interesting if your Soveriegns descendants had some free will. So say child X wants to become a warrior rather than an administrator, the Soveriegn can either allow him/her to become one or force him/her to be an administrator (or whatever). This in turn could influence the child's loyalty to the sovergein and his/her chance of going rogue or possibly joining another faction.

Quoting Wahngrok,
While driving to work a few questons came to my mind.

How will interracial marriages be adressed? Can Fallen and Men be married (or reproduce even)?

 

I also think these are interesting questions, perhaps offspring from such marraiges might be rarer but more powerful?

Another point that occurs to me is whether or not your children will be born with there own supply of essence or if you will be able to pick a family favourite and imbue him or her with some of your essence to create a family champion. (The only problem I see here is if all your children are mortal even your champions will die one day potentially leaving you with little to show for your investment.)

 

 

 

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August 27, 2009 6:55:27 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Done

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August 27, 2009 6:59:15 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I would prefer male and female children to not be identical to each other. It is a good opportunity to instil depth and variety into the game.

I never said that the male and female children should be identical to each other. I support the idea that the male children have a bigger chance to become a great warrior, and the females children have a more diplomatic function most of the time. But when you get a female child with high intelligence and magic ability, you should have to option to use her as a hero. I oppose the idea that women should be placed in the subservient role and to be married off for a diplomatic bonus just because they are female.

It's not because in our medieval times things mostly worked that way, that it should be implemented like this in a game. It's fantasy, not a historical representation from medieval Europe. If I want to play a game like that, I'll go to Europa Unversalis and the like...

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August 27, 2009 8:27:18 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Hello,

I think that the descendants would must be agreed as a term of the diplomatic negotiations when a marriage is proposed. 

A previous term would be where the couple is going to live, o which faction they will join, and in exchange of this term the faction that loses the son or the daughter will have rights over the fisrtborn boychild, by example, in order to balance the marriage treaty

PD: Excuse my english, I´m from Spain.

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August 27, 2009 8:40:35 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I oppose the idea that women should be placed in the subservient role and to be married off for a diplomatic bonus just because they are female.

Not me I'm agin it. Females subservient yeah and nakid. Git Off muh land!

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August 27, 2009 8:57:39 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Wahngrok,

On the subject of gender domination: It's OK to be insecure about your role in society but arguing with human (european) history seems a bit strange for a fantasy game.

 

I agree with Scorpiana when he says that real life history shouldn't be a guideline to making this game.

However, I do think that the male children should be the heirs, and that the females shouldn't be. I really really liked the Total War approach from Medieval II. That characters have a line of stats that could be improved/reduced through certain acts.

In this thread it seems that a lot of you guys are going in a direction that would lead to a somewhat micro-intensive care of the Sovereigns children, grandchildren and so on. I don't like this direction: while I *do* think that the dynasty mechanic is very cool, I also think that it shouldn't be overshadowing the rest of the game. Personally I would dislike having to micromanage the childcare of my scions. If I wanted to do that, I could play the Sims...

 

My ideas on the subject is that you could have a line of options open to you when a child is born, and then you could select one of these. E.g.: The sovereign is gifted a son. At the same time you have some plans for a little bit of aggressive expansion. So you select the option "Military General" for this kid. As the child grows up (maybe there could be a bit of UI showing the progression?) he is granted a bunch of traits/abilities that you can access when he becomes available as a piece on the gaming board. The traits that the children had could then be improved (or new ones could be added) based on the achievements of these children. A Soldier child winning a lot of battles could improve his soldiers morale, while also gaining a trait that would improve his influence (along this line, also ensure the populaces loyalty in a city he would be governing). In this way you would also be able to, somewhat, influence the path of your children when they were all grown up.

I realise that this approach leans heavily on the Total War concept, with the exception that you, as a player, has influence on the path that this child would be walk. As I see it, this would mix the ability to "control" your childrens progression, while leaving out the micro-managing aspects that I personlly would rather be without.

 

A number of example "career choices" for the children.

Males: Soldier/general, Administrator, Scholar

Females: Diplomat... eh... dunno...

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August 27, 2009 9:30:36 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Question #1 missed the best answer:  they belong to whoever the family belongs to.  If I marry someone off to another empire, then the children belong to that empire.  If someone marries into my empire, they belong to me!

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August 27, 2009 9:45:25 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

In terms of female children, I think a more modern view on what they can do is more fitting. While the setting is in a fantasy realm, we don't need to get bogged down with medieval thinking. I'd be perfectly fine in having daughters become powerful mages, shieldmaidens or skillful overseers.

Though I don't know how Stardock's vision of the lore and setting would dictate female roles, I think giving them some sort of unique job/skill over males would make it a more meaningful and difficult to decide to marry them off to another empire.

Only having them so they can be married off is a bit lame.

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August 27, 2009 12:55:53 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree with Scorpiana when he says that real life history shouldn't be a guideline to making this game.

Thanks you

However, I do think that the male children should be the heirs, and that the females shouldn't be. I really really liked the Total War approach from Medieval II. That characters have a line of stats that could be improved/reduced through certain acts.

Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then... I really hope they will make this an option.I really want my female Sovereign together with her female descendants be able to conquer the world and teach those male chauvinistic pigs a lesson...

In this thread it seems that a lot of you guys are going in a direction that would lead to a somewhat micro-intensive care of the Sovereigns children, grandchildren and so on.

I guess this depends on the number of children a Sovereign will get, and how related the children have to be for the sovereign to 'use' them. Can we influence only our direct descendants? Two generations away? Every generation into infinity?

If only one or two generations can be used, it probably wont be that hard to manage, but otherwise I agree with you that some of these ideas might be a bit too much to handle.

Question #1 missed the best answer:  they belong to whoever the family belongs to.  If I marry someone off to another empire, then the children belong to that empire.  If someone marries into my empire, they belong to me!

I imagine Stardock will go with something like this, it's probably the easiest to implement, and the most obvious for the players. However, I do like the option to make this negotiable before the wedding...

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August 27, 2009 1:40:43 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

This is the system that should be used: The father's side crowns whichever child he desires, and if the mother's side wants to crown a different child, they either negotiate to come to an agreement or both children become kings/queens and there is war between them. 

So the father's side will normally get control of the successor. 

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August 27, 2009 3:20:33 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Ron Lugge,
Question #1 missed the best answer:  they belong to whoever the family belongs to.  If I marry someone off to another empire, then the children belong to that empire.  If someone marries into my empire, they belong to me!

I agree. There was diplomacy involved in the marriage, so it stands to reason that if someone leaves one court to go to another and there is a child born, that child belongs to the court they went to. I suppose you could have fosterling events or something of that nature involved. Don't need archaic CK as this is fantasy, and CK didnt' account for the few times women had the reigns very well anyway.

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