Welcome to agony: AKA a Stardock BETA!

By on August 14, 2009 7:04:13 PM from JoeUser Forums JoeUser Forums

Frogboy

Chief Executive Officer
Join Date 03/2001
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image For those of you who have been in a Stardock BETA, none of what I mention is going to be a surprise. But for everyone else, stand back!

See the screenshot? If you’re in the Elemental BETA, you won’t see anything remotely resembling that for MONTHS.  That’s because BETA 1 of Elemental will exist only with the strategic map (aka the cloth map).  Imagine playing Galactic Civilizations or Supreme Commander or Sins of a Solar Empire purely from the zoomed out strategic map.

Why are we doing this? Because we’re evil? Well, that probably does contribute. But the main reason is because if the game is good, it should be fun to play even with the crappiest graphics.

So BETA 1 will be fun then right? NO. It’s going to be HORRIBLE actually. At least, for the first month and a half it’ll be represent such a dense level of crapitude that it actually has its own detectable level of gravity.

The alpha testers could attest to this right now except they’ve all lost consciousness (the smart ones anyway) due to passing out from it.

Originally, I had argued internally that BETA 1 would be only X’s and O’s played at CGA resolution with 4 colors but the team made the case that we’d end up having to throw out that code so we settled on the strategic map (cloth map) since at least, if we did that, a player could actually play the game on a netbook or some really ancient laptop in pure cloth map mode.

Why Stardock? Why are you so cruel? Is it because chicks wouldn’t go out with you in highschool?

Sure, that’s a contributing, even possibly a majority factor, but a big part of the reason we do it this way, and again, GalCiv and Sins players can attest, is that it allows players to have a lot more input into the game.

A Stardock BETA isn’t a typical beta. It’s really not a beta by typical industry terms. Rather, it’s more of a prototype. GalCiv players, not us, came up with starbases.  Hard to believe that isn’t it? But it’s true.  For BETA 1, we’re not really looking for “bug” reports. We want to hear people telling us what they’d like to see, how they’d like the game work.  And we’ll debate, discuss, argue, and have a lot of fun putting it all together over the next several months because, well, for us, the BETA process is a key part of the game’s (as opposed to the coding) evolution.

If we do things right, Elemental will be a game that will be evolving and improving and modded by players years from now.  Everything from its game mechanics to its flexible graphics engine is being designed so that a person will be able to fire up the game 10 years from now and it’ll still seem like a “modern” game that is fun to play and has continued to evolve.

Case study: Master of Magic

Imagine if Master of Magic had been developed as a 3D based game instead of sprite based. That means, no fixed screen resolution. Now, imagine if all the assets in the game were designed to be potentially replaced using very well known, open standards and that a lot of the game specific coding was available in Python?

The result would have been a game where the graphics and other visual “assets” could slowly be updated and replaced with ever higher polygon and higher texture versions. The AI and the game mechanics could slowly evolve over time as players came up with interesting ideas and they could pick  and choose which parts they wanted.

That’s one of our biggest goals with Elemental.  We want to make a game that will keep getting better over time.  So we have an engine with no practical limit on texture size or polygon limit. It can get both visually and programmatically better for years to come with our without our involvement.

But in the betas, well, they’re still going to be HOOOORRRIBLE!

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August 15, 2009 8:06:29 PM from Demigod Forums Demigod Forums

Quoting Dash5,
to participate in the beta do you need to sign an NDA?

No, only alpha and pre-release gamma participants have to sign NDAs.

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August 15, 2009 10:17:31 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Aesir, I'd hope that every company's latest major title is intended to be their "magnum opus."

While that would lead us to some form of a gamer's Nirvana, you and I know from experience that some titles do not qualify for the description of "classic" or "great" - much less what I had in mind when I used the term "magnum opus".

Here's a good description of what I was thinking of when I wrote "magnum opus" instead of (for example)  "masterpiece":

Magnum Opus

The term "magnum opus" is distinguished in usage from "masterpiece" by a requirement that it is a work on a large scale, and by the absence of a requirement that it is generally regarded as among the creator's most successful works.

...

With other artists, such as Beethoven, Wagner, Michelangelo and Raphael, the two terms coincide in their work—their largest works are among those regarded as their best.

[Bold-text is mine]

If Frogboy's intent comes to pass (...10 years from now and it’ll still seem ... fun to play...") then we'd have many years to come up with even better words to describe it. 

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August 15, 2009 11:27:45 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

We're all counting on the beta folk to help craft the game up proper---hang in there folks!  Though, I suppose if they can't sleep at night due to nightmares and whatnot I would reckon Frogboy just so happens to keep some chloroform on his person for general contingencies that might arise...

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August 16, 2009 12:09:22 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I get the impression that Elemental is intended to be Frogboy's/SD's magnum opus. Like Pink Floyd's The Wall.

God, I hope not, that was the beginning of the end of Pink Floyd...

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August 16, 2009 6:44:43 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Dash5,
to participate in the beta do you need to sign an NDA?

Alpha, yes.

Beta, no.

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August 16, 2009 2:27:15 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

That last bit about Master of Magic is like dangling a stake in front of a hungry dog. 

Soon(next year) I will have the money to pre-order Elemental, and I shall feast on the stake.

 

PS: The food reference is a cause of missing dinner today.

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August 16, 2009 4:25:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

 

Quoting Dash5,
to participate in the beta do you need to sign an NDA?

Qouting Zaisha

Alpha, yes.

Beta, no.

 

 

Thanks. Still being a minor i hoped that was the case.

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August 16, 2009 6:41:28 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

omfg I really had to laugh hard at that. hail to the resident torture masters of stardoch. SD now officially stands for sadistic demons. I just imagine the alpha loading up with a beaufiful intro using the good engine and a message once you enter your game 'haha, you're fucked. got you, you though you could have fun here?! you thought this is entertainment?! wrooong! muahahahaha. now get to work you lazy, worthless, spoiled nerd and maybe we will reward you with a screenshot. maybe. if you find and best a dragon. of which there is only one in every 100 games. that should be incentive. now play! I mean work!

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August 16, 2009 6:47:58 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

O noes my third beta

 

PAX needs to be done and over with already!

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August 16, 2009 8:56:05 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

ZOMG a beta that actually is more than a demo, and it focuses on game play?? Inconceivable! Now when does it start? After PAX for sure?

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August 16, 2009 9:16:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Arizenkin,
ZOMG a beta that actually is more than a demo, and it focuses on game play?? Inconceivable! Now when does it start? After PAX for sure?

No, I think it will be less than a demo, at least for a while. I mean, the first couple months will be only cloth map.

But Frogboy has said repeatedly that it will be either during or within a day or two after PAX. Although I assume there's always the chance something could go horribly, horribly wrong and it gets delayed, although I might have to kill some one if that happens

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August 16, 2009 9:27:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

No, I think it will be less than a demo, at least for a while. I mean, the first couple months will be only cloth map.

 

LOL< you both just tried to say the same thing using different words.  "More than a demo" reffering to the fact that what we're getting is more than playing a demo, and "less than a demo" reffering to the fact that the product is less than expected from a demo.

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August 16, 2009 10:47:19 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Ron Lugge,

No, I think it will be less than a demo, at least for a while. I mean, the first couple months will be only cloth map.


 

LOL< you both just tried to say the same thing using different words.  "More than a demo" reffering to the fact that what we're getting is more than playing a demo, and "less than a demo" reffering to the fact that the product is less than expected from a demo.

I though he meant "more than a demo" as in it's more than a typical demo, which it won't be, but your way makes sence, too.

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August 16, 2009 10:59:08 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Showing that screenshot is like letting someone smell freshly-baked chocolate chip cookies, and then telling them it's for a party the next day.  Cruel, so cruel...

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August 17, 2009 1:11:08 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Imagine playing Galactic Civilizations or Supreme Commander or Sins of a Solar Empire purely from the zoomed out strategic map.

 

Oh HELL NO!   I watched a game of Supreme Commander from the winning guys side (who zoomed out to the maximum) and it was so boring to watch that I knew that it would never become spectatorfriendly if the strategic map was allowed to be used.

 

I stopped playing GalCiv 2 when i realised that the strategic map (everything is icons) is needed to see small ships. My ships where attacked by the Dreadlords whose ships were so small that I almost couldn't see them.

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August 17, 2009 8:52:29 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting endofdayz,

I am praying it is rolling. I preordered early august, I feel I should get in Beta 1. It would be silly to lock people out, especially because as the word spreads more people will want to join in.

 

One other thing: when does the preorder money get withdrawn? At the beggining of beta or when the game is released?

Anybody who pre-ordered before beta starts will be in beta, I don't think it's ever worked otherwise. You'll be charged the money when you gain access to beta. (Or more correctly: when the credit card processing goes through, you gain access to beta.)

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August 17, 2009 9:48:12 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Tridus,



Quoting endofdayz,
reply 47

I am praying it is rolling. I preordered early august, I feel I should get in Beta 1. It would be silly to lock people out, especially because as the word spreads more people will want to join in.

 

One other thing: when does the preorder money get withdrawn? At the beggining of beta or when the game is released?



Anybody who pre-ordered before beta starts will be in beta, I don't think it's ever worked otherwise. You'll be charged the money when you gain access to beta. (Or more correctly: when the credit card processing goes through, you gain access to beta.)

So you can't order during beta to get into the beta?

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August 17, 2009 10:34:53 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting cephalo,



Quoting Tridus,
reply 66



Quoting endofdayz,
reply 47

I am praying it is rolling. I preordered early august, I feel I should get in Beta 1. It would be silly to lock people out, especially because as the word spreads more people will want to join in.

 

One other thing: when does the preorder money get withdrawn? At the beggining of beta or when the game is released?



Anybody who pre-ordered before beta starts will be in beta, I don't think it's ever worked otherwise. You'll be charged the money when you gain access to beta. (Or more correctly: when the credit card processing goes through, you gain access to beta.)



So you can't order during beta to get into the beta?

I believe they stated there will be a brief window after beta starts that people can pre-order and get in.

Everything I have seen from StarDock indicates that the window WILL close and there will be a point during beta that no new people will be able to join beta (at least until the next beta phase). My GUT FEELING is that between October and the end of the year people will not be getting in to beta. Note the capitalized GUT FEELING. maybe a kindly dev can clarify or confirm.

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August 17, 2009 12:08:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

So you can't order during beta to get into the beta?

 

SD process usually goes as follows:

 

Preorder group 'A' -- preorders before beta 1 is available.

Beta 1 -- for a small window, usually 2 weeks, all orders are processed in the order recieved (this includes pre-orders).  At the end of this period, the transactions are closed and no new orders are accepted.  As a result, Preorder group A is in, along with anyone who jumps on the train quickly enough.

Preorder group 'B' -- Preorders during the 'closed' period before beta 2

Beta 2 -- for a small window, usually 2 weeks, all orders are processed in the order recieved (this includes pre-orders).  At the end of this period, the transactions are closed and no new orders are accepted.  As a result, Preorder groups A and B are in, along with anyone who jumped on the train quickly enough the first time around or now.

 

Rinse, wash, and repeat as needed for the rest of teh betas.

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August 18, 2009 10:34:41 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yea! Beta is around the corner. And I like how we're still getting tidbits!  Yea!   So now I'm half excited and half terrified of Beta comming...  Guess I should notify my next of kin that if I'm not heard from in days... to send in a swat team with pizza and fizzy drinks!

 

Rawr!

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August 18, 2009 10:43:00 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting foxfire1234,
Guess I should notify my next of kin that if I'm not heard from in days... to send in a swat team with pizza and fizzy drinks!  

Rawr!

That is exactly how this sort of thing needs to be approached. Foxfire gets it. Right guys?

Best screenshot yet in my opinion. Even if it's just a mockup.

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August 18, 2009 11:24:38 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Best screenshot yet in my opinion. Even if it's just a mockup.

You think that's a mockup you're seeing?

... hmm, interesting...

 

But on a more serious note: Brad stated  that clothmap only for the beta is to concentrate the testing on the gameplay mechanics, not on the eye-candy. But just because the beta will be clothmap only doesn't mean they have no ingame detailed graphics for their internal builds. That way they would have as much time as possible to get that right as well (and probaly avoid something like the netcode disaster of Demigod).

Also remember that Stardock is evil. And what better way to tease the becoming beta testers than with nice ingame graphics.

But on that note: Can't wait for the beta to start... eye-candy or not.

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August 18, 2009 7:33:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I watched a game of Supreme Commander from the winning guys side (who zoomed out to the maximum) and it was so boring to watch that I knew that it would never become spectatorfriendly if the strategic map was allowed to be used.

You know you they have spectator spots and replays in games for a reason. You don't always have to watch things through one player's eyes.

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August 18, 2009 8:04:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Best screenshot yet in my opinion. Even if it's just a mockup.

What makes you think it's a mock up?

 

Staged, yes, but a mockup?  I don't think SD would do that, not after strongly implying that that was the graphics engine.

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August 18, 2009 10:14:11 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Ron Lugge,


What makes you think it's a mock up?

I have no evidence to back that up whatsoever.

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