Don't chintz on the opening videos and trailers

By on August 8, 2009 8:19:46 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

nOObonian

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We want a big community with this game so don't chintz on the opening videos or trailers. People are superficial, many people will or won't buy this game solely on the how the trailer looks. (For example, you didn't do yourself any favors by the Nov 2008 teaser...it sucked donkey CENSORED).
Demigod had the absolutely worst opening sequence ever. It was a bunch of pictoglyphs that went from simply stone to glowing lines with some James Earl Jones wanna-be voice yelling about becoming a god. I could have done it on my Commodore 64 when I was 10.
 
Have some guy shoot lighting and take an Ogre's head clean off, only to have him eaten by something.  Talk to some 13 year old and get his idea of "cool" and then clean it up a little.
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August 8, 2009 8:43:14 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Yeah, trailers really have to be good and captive(ideally pure epic CGI sequences), otherwise the game will get very low rating and will get a negative rep.

There is such thing as negative advertising.

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August 8, 2009 8:48:07 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Say what?? Since when have you ever seen a review that gave bad scores based on the intro movie? The game is what counts, not the intro.

That being said, some trailers are pure cgi animation and does wonders for advertising. I still remember the first time I saw the first Hellgate trailer..good stuff, but thats another example of great intro and poorer exectution of game.

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August 8, 2009 8:54:41 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

What are you talking about, they have a ranking system on gametrailers.com(one of the biggest sites), where you can track games, how many people read reviews?

Trailers serve as means to get hyped about the game. And not only trailers but carefully orchestrated gameplay videos(like the latest Batman game).

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August 8, 2009 8:56:01 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I watch the trailer once and then always skip it. I think Dawn of War probably got a bit of a review points bump for its intro, but generally don't people just want to get into the game?

Making a cool menu screen like Civ 4's could be nice though.

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August 8, 2009 8:57:11 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Ah, Supreme Commander has the coolest menu screen ever.

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August 8, 2009 10:55:44 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Some people are too concerned about sizzle and not enough about steak.

Nothing wrong with a little sizzle to market with, but if the steak sucks word will get out and no amount of slick CGI animation will save the game.

Likewise, if the trailer is adequate but nothing to get excited about but the game itself is incredible, word will get out about it. Seems like there was this little game called Portal that had NO intro movie, and no marketing, but there for a while EVERYONE was talking about it.

I'm not against some beautiful cinematics to open the game, but there are so many things that are more important. This game's target audience isn't ten year olds, claiming that the opening cinematics (or the aniimations, or the other "eye candy" in general have got to be awesome for this game to do well - that's true for the twitch gamer RTS and FPS crowd, but not so much for the TBS crowd because they tend to be older and more mature and whether a game is good or not is not based on being able to show off the capabilities of your 1337 $600 graphics card.

you guys pushing this eye candy silliness as if it is the cornerstone of great game design - I am sorry, in my book you need to buy a clue. Most of us here want a meaty game that we will be playing 10 years from now, not some flashy glitzy game that 6 months after release is gathering dust on our computer game shelf.

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August 8, 2009 11:54:15 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

teasers very rarely have anything in them.   You think the Elemental teaser sucked?  Have you SEEN other teaser trailers?  (for example:  FF3's was just a floating crystal for 10 seconds... NOTHING ELSE.  Duke Nukum was just a man pumping iron.  Sonic unleashed was just a hand and a ring.)   Elemental had one of the better "teaser trailers" out there that come to mind.

Secondly, what did you want from the Demigod intro?   An intro movie is supposed to A: introduce the story, B: get you excited for the game.    Personally, I'm usually upset with intro movies when they are of the type B, and they just use a bunch of clipped together shots of in-game photage.  It told the story of Demigod and it was something that was actually an experiance unto itself (rather than just a video of the experiance the game is going to provide). I thought it set the mood for Demigod very well.

And just because you could have made it doesn't mean you've missed out.   Intro movies should not be a vacuum of resources.   What is the point of spending tons of money on a few seconds of opening movie that nobody watches more than once anyway.   If you take a very amazing intro movie, in this example I will use Starcraft BroodWar's intro,  I still only watch it once in a very rare time frame.   And I feel that I watch it more than the common gamer.  

 So why should devs take time to make an intro that is "cool" to a 13 year old, if the 13 year old is never going to watch it?   That might be a great idea for a trailer, but serves to purpose as the intro?   I don't think "browing an ogre's head off" sets the mood for elemental.   It might for the Elemental FPS mod, but not for what it sounds like this game is shaping up to be.

 

Watch the Master of Magic intro.   Now thats an intro!

 

 

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August 8, 2009 12:20:26 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Hortz,
Yeah, trailers really have to be good and captive(ideally pure epic CGI sequences), otherwise the game will get very low rating and will get a negative rep.

.

 

Because they were *so* important in making Galc Civ 2 as successful as it was...

 

Oh wait.  No they weren't.  Gal Civ 2 was succesful because it was a great strategy game.  Sorry Hortz, you fail again.

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August 8, 2009 12:26:39 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I seriously doubt people will buy refrain from buying a game because there isnt a super duper fantastic trailer for it... As Bingjack said, Galciv 2 didnt need it, Sword of the Stars didnt need it, and this game is in the same vein...

More focus on game mechanics and less on trailers I'd say...

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August 8, 2009 12:33:04 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting ,

 
Have some guy shoot lighting and take an Ogre's head clean off, only to have him eaten by something.  Talk to some 13 year old and get his idea of "cool" and then clean it up a little.

 

This game will *fail* if it appeals to 13 year olds.   Seriously...have you never played a Stardock game before?  Or any other hardcore strategy game?  What you are speaking of is *so* unimportant as far as this game's base goes.

If you told this game's base you were going to double the budget of the game, to put that money into paying  some third party studio to do a high end CG cinematic, and not into developing the game and making it even deeper, they would be livid.

 

Stardock : Please Chintz on the  silly trailers and cut scenes, and put even more money into developing things that matter...like  the *game*.

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August 8, 2009 12:58:00 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Demigod's intro movie was a pleasantly awesome change of pace.

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August 8, 2009 1:12:03 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Bingjack,
... If you told this game's base you were going to double the budget of the game, to put that money into paying  some third party studio to do a high end CG cinematic, and not into developing the game and making it even deeper, they would be livid. ...

I don't have Stardock's customer profile database at hand, but I'm pretty sure Bingjack's right here. That 'base,' at least for GC2, even includes a faction who pretty much never zoom into the 3D map view (what the devs seem to be calling 'the normal game' for Elemental).

I'll be very surprised if this game doesn't also develop a small crew of players who wish less money had been spent on all those 3D assets and more had been spent on underlying game mechanics and AI development. And I'm not just talking about the foks who *still* play chunky-funky ole MoM in their DOSBoxes.

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August 8, 2009 1:12:20 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Bingjack,


Because they were *so* important in making Galc Civ 2 as successful as it was...

These games have a specific loyal audience. Obviously if they want to expand that market they would need to up the advertising. For example, this is something that Dawn of War 2 did and what Supreme Commander 2 will be doing.

And I agree that developing epic CGI movies(like Star Wars:The Old Republic or Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning) would be a waste of money in this case, I was talking about a themed series of carefuly orchestrated gameplay videos, starting with the most aluring one and then building on that.

Although clearly such epic movies always become viral because of their awesomeness, you can't buy advertising like that..

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August 8, 2009 1:33:34 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Why do you care if Stardock's game becomes a major blockbuster or not? The game will be good and it will sell to its intended audience, and even if it doesn't sell a million copies Stardock will continue to support it with awesome updates. If anything, we should be lobbying to get as much focus on the actual game as possible instead of advertising. As players who will buy the game regardless of advertising, it's in our interest to ask Stardock to spend as little as possible trying to pimp out the mainstream image of the game. 

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August 8, 2009 1:55:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Bingjack,



Because they were *so* important in making Galc Civ 2 as successful as it was...


Oh wait.  No they weren't.  Gal Civ 2 was succesful because it was a great strategy game. 

 

Quoting Hortz,





These games have a specific loyal audience. Obviously if they want to expand that market they would need to up the advertising. For example, this is something that Dawn of War 2 did and what Supreme Commander 2 will be doing.

And I agree that developing epic CGI movies(like Star Wars:The Old Republic or Warhammer Online: Age of Reckoning) would be a waste of money in this case, I was talking about a themed series of carefuly orchestrated gameplay videos, starting with the most aluring one and then building on that.

Although clearly such epic movies always become viral because of their awesomeness, you can't buy advertising like that..

 

Theres no bigger Blur Studios fan than me (think of any really awesome opening game Cinematic you've seen, including the two you mentioned, and chances are it has been Blur studios that has done it...the game developers themselves dont make them, they farm it out).  Great for big budget games that appeal to a wider audience, and in large part sell themselves by being graphically flashy (because the underlying games arent so compelling anymore, these days), and have to waste so much money trying to market themselves for the lowest common denominator, ADD-riddled, portion of the console audience.

 

But no matter what you do, Elemental is not going to appeal to a super wide audience, any more than Gal Civ did. Hardcore, turn based/4x strategy is simply a niche market.  It involves a commitment and depth that most of the mainstream audience is just not interested in.  And the people  that *are* interested in it, are concerned primarily with depth, mechanic, and replayability.  Graphics are *always* important( some comments to the contrary), but in terms of UI functionality and appealing presentation(artistically), and you simply don't need super  high budget, high end graphics , to do this...at least, not for this genre, not for the people who will actually be buying this game.

 

Stardock makes these games on a relatively modest budget compared to most other triple A games.  Would I love to see a Blur studios cinematic in one of their games?  Theoretically, sure.  But that would represent a significant increase in budget, that in no situation can I imagine, I would rather not see spent on developing the actual game.

 

But I'm beginning to suspect that you understand all this already, and are just trolling for your own amusement to get everyone worked up.  Because, quite frankly, nobody can be this dense about the subject...it would require you to have not ever played a Stardock game, or another 4x or TBS game...in which case...what would you be doing here?

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August 8, 2009 1:56:11 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I just love how people get online and become armchair programmers, armchair marketing specialists, etc. etc.

I'll leave that stuff to the peoplr whose ability to make their  house payment depends ont heir ability to make the right call as to "what's important".

Eye candy is fun - I won't deny that. But this idea that it is some fundamental piece of being able to produce an excellent game - it's the equivalent of saying a great book has to have pictures, or needs to have a gold trimmed, leather bound cover. While owning books that have those things may be nice - it's not what most people buy a book for. (Maybe lawyers so they have an impressive looking book case to stand in front of for their portrait...)

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August 8, 2009 3:04:44 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Bingjack,

Elemental is not going to appeal to a super wide audience, any more than Gal Civ did.

My dream has always been to play a game that has a a deep strategic layer of Galactic Civilizations/Civilization 4 (with factions being far more unique, visually, and mechanics wise) with real time battle aspect with graphics/animation/physics on the level of Company of Heroes/Dawn of War 2  and Star Wars: Empire At War style detailed space battles.

I thought about that long before any of those games came to be.

There is a huge niche fore that.

And there is such a thing as cultivating your audience and luring them in, not just catering to the most commmon denominator.

 

To say that games like GalCiv2/Civilization 4 not need to evolve and expand and to box them in their artificially manufactured niche is a ridiculous notion.

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August 8, 2009 3:22:35 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Hortz,

My dream has always been to play a game that has a a deep strategic layer of Galactic Civilizations/Civilization 4 (with factions being far more unique, visually, and mechanics wise) with real time battle aspect with graphics/animation/physics on the level of Company of Heroes/Dawn of War 2  and Star Wars: Empire At War style detailed space battles.

That's why it's a dream, because taking 2 top games (Civ 4 and CoH) and saying "it would be awesome to have them together" would be a total failure. First, the game would be too expensive to produce and second (and more important) it won't be clear to which target market the game is directed. There's people that like RTS, others that like TBS, but doing a weird mix of both of them you are targeting the people who like both genres, not people who like one and dislike the other.

If I want to play a RTS, I fire CoH or TFT, and if I want a TBS I launch Civ 4, but please, not weird mixes.

Quoting Hortz,

There is a huge niche fore that.

I totally disagree, it's a pretty small niche. So you are proposing a really expensive game (because it's expensive to do a RTS and a TBS well at the same time) that will target a really small population of gamers. That's probably the reason why no one has ever done it (because you know, I'm sure at least several thousands people have had this idea before).

Quoting Hortz,

To say that games like GalCiv2/Civilization 4 not need to evolve and expand and to box them in their artificially manufactured niche is a ridiculous notion.

TBS are niche games, just check their sell numbers compared to FPS or RPGs. It also hurts that TBS games are very hard to port to consoles (so they are constrained to only one platform).

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August 8, 2009 3:25:33 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Hortz,


To say that games like GalCiv2/Civilization 4 not need to evolve and expand and to box them in their artificially manufactured niche is a ridiculous notion.

 

But your agenda here on the boards has nothing to do with expanding the game's themselves.  It has to do with spending more money on commercials for it, and more limited resources on things that do nothing to enhance the actual game itself.

 

The only way you'd get the 4x Strategy genre to appeal to *significantly* more people, is to dumb the game down, to make it more accessible to more people, to the point where it was no longer recognizable.  And the people who *actually* purchase these games want the opposite of that.

 

Pony up a few million dollars, and commission a movie and a few cut scenes.  Then you can have your Blur  Studios opening cinematic. Which will be good for a couple "gee whiz" moments  before the release of the game.  As opposed to their not being enough depth or variety in Unit Creation, which will affect every single moment of every game you play, and then you'll be right back here complaining on the boards about that.

 

This game is not going to be an RTS.  It doesnt have a Starcraft 2 budget.  And it will still probably be a much better game than any number of much more graphically high end games.

 

  Go read Brad's alpha walkthrough of the game.  Knowing that the eventual game will look much better than that, and be quite a bit more graphically sophisticated than that when released...setting that aside...if you dont think you find the game represented there appealing enough to play on it's own merits...this game is not going to be for you.  Know that now, move on, and stop wasting everyone's time.

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August 8, 2009 3:35:44 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Vicente,


TBS are niche games, just check their sell numbers compared to FPS or RPGs. It also hurts that TBS games are very hard to port to consoles (so they are constrained to only one platform).

 

I'm pretty sure that King's Bounty: The Legend broke some barriers in that department and tapped into a whole new market, even my 8 year old arcadey nephew liked it a lot.

So if Elemental is going to be like I get the impression(Civilization 4+King's Bounty: The Legend) it will be, those graphical/animation/tactic elements of KB will function as a lure and overall strategy will be icing for us experienced players.

Really, it's silly to say that this is a niche market, it depends on a lot of things...

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August 8, 2009 3:44:26 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Hortz,

Quoting Vicente, reply 18

TBS are niche games, just check their sell numbers compared to FPS or RPGs. It also hurts that TBS games are very hard to port to consoles (so they are constrained to only one platform).
 

I'm pretty sure that King's Bounty: The Legend broke some barriers in that department and tapped into a whole new market, even my 8 year old arcadey nephew liked it a lot.

So if Elemental is going to be like I get the impression(Civilization 4+King's Bounty: The Legend) it will be, those graphical/animation/tactic elements of KB will function as a lure and overall strategy will be icing for us experienced players.

Really, it's silly to say that this is a niche market, it depends on a lot of things...

 

I really dont think you have any concept of what this game is going to be.  Which is fair...many people dont at this stage.  But your constant references to Kings Bounty as a comparison for this game are confusing.

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August 8, 2009 4:00:21 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Quoting Bingjack,



I really dont think you have any concept of what this game is going to be.  Which is fair...many people dont at this stage.  But your constant references to Kings Bounty as a comparison for this game are confusing.

Youa are not actually suggesting that Elemental is going to be a completely original game which will have and can have no comparision products and that Stardock wants it to be such a niche game as to not even bother to try and sell it to the masses? Also, is there a special reason why you are being so rude to people who have committed the crime of just disagreeing with you?

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August 8, 2009 4:13:14 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Nesrie,

Quoting Bingjack, reply 21


I really dont think you have any concept of what this game is going to be.  Which is fair...many people dont at this stage.  But your constant references to Kings Bounty as a comparison for this game are confusing.

Youa are not actually suggesting that Elemental is going to be a completely original game which will have and can have no comparision products and that Stardock wants it to be such a niche game as to not even bother to try and sell it to the masses? Also, is there a special reason why you are being so rude to people who have committed the crime of just disagreeing with you?

 

No he just keeps comparing the game to Kings Bounty, which is...like I said ...confusing.  And I never said Stardock said they want it to be a Niche game.  TB 4x strategy is a niche genre, and Stardock wants it to be a great game...of that genre. That genre is defined by gameplay, not graphics, and ever has it been so.

 

And yes, Im saying, as most fans here would, dont try to sell it to the masses.  They wont buy it anyways, and then you have an inferior, dumbed down game, that the actual people who *would have purchased it, no longer like.  Luckily, Stardock understands this, and understands their fanbase well...because they are members of that fanbase, and make the games *they'd* like to play.

 

Im sorry that you think Im being rude, but he has a one broken note agenda, has been spamming it all over the front page of the forums, had his first thread on the subject locked from being rude about it, and now seeks to hijack every other thread into a clone of that one.  And idiots like me, keep helping him do that by buying into his trolling.

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August 8, 2009 4:17:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Seriusly hortz... all you seem to want is some amazing CGI and no game underneath. Some of my favorite games are the oldies, with crap graphics but awesome gameplay. Its not just nostalgia, its the same reason playing crysis left me bored after 15 minutes and yet I still can play Civ2 or MoM or AoK and have a ball.

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August 8, 2009 4:20:49 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

In another thread a SD dev said they would never sacrafice gameplay for graphics (actually in response to Hortz, lol) so I wouldn't worry. Also games like Spore and Empire:TW have shown that dumbing down a game for the masses is suicide, so hopefully stardock will actually work for the people who will buy thier product, not the drooling unknown

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