Robbie.Price

Join Date 04/2007

+12

End Game: Wining the game

Not having the last 20% of the turns be a waiting game

TBS end games suck. It's almost a universal property of turn based strategy games. You build up you fight, you research, and you make it through the mid game, emerge as top dog . . .then spend the next quarter / third of the game just going threw the motions of meeting the 'game win' objectives (be they finishing up that final tech, finishing that secret project, casting that uber spell, crushing the last towns petty resistances, watching your armies move 1/18th of the map each turn for 50 turns. . . normally you know you're going to achieve it LONG before you actually do. [sometimes not, I've finished up an game win tech while loosing the last of my planets, or cast the magic mastery spell as a unstoppable army marches to my front gate... but it's rare.]).

In part it's a requirement of the genre [TBS mechanics], but can't Elemental at least make it fun?

My example mainly focuses on the winning by mastery of magic. but I'm sure the other game win methods can also be beefed up similarly.

If Elemental follows the trend of research to win TBS alternative win options, It will play out something like this:

Near the end of the research tree is a branch, finishing each tech in the branch gives you nothing but the next spell to research (or a semi-trivial bonus and a spell to research), Each successive spell will take many more Research points then the previous. The last spell on the branch will be 'win the game' the spell, you finish it, you cast it and the stats for the game pop up saying how wonderfully you did. yay.

I've got a counter proposal, but first an assumptions.

Before you start a game you choose a channeler, or you customize one. if you customize you'll be shown a list of options and have a set number of 'picks' you can use to choose bonuses you want, and neffs you accept to trade for other bonuses you think are more important. If the game follows AOW and MOM, you also use those picks to select books(spheres, shards) which determine which spells you can use, and how high a level of that type of magic you can learn (3 nature books unlocks level 3 nature spells to be researched, a forth gives you 4-5 more spells that you can research (level 4 nature spells).) For the sake of easy math you get 10 picks, which you can use for both books or channeler properties [extra essence, fast researcher, item forger, fire magic expert...]

My suggestion, instead of having a, You Win, spell have the player actually MASTER MAGIC. If the average channeler has 60 spells they can learn with the books they choose at the start of the game, have approximately 6 spell research slots that are 'get one more channeler pick' research options. Each additional bonus pick of course costs more to research. The game would still have a towards mastery spell research branch, available late in the game, but these also would give channeler picks at much steeper, and faster growing cost then the first 6.

At the end of this you now have an additional 10 picks you've spent, making you a much more powerful channeler then your opponents [if they have not been keeping up] the way of progressing from here is have that 10th win a pick actually be the 'win the game' spell. Instead i suggest that the research cost for additional picks be reduced. In any normal game you would have already 'won' so instead just have the cost to get your 11th pick be the cost of your 9th, the 12th the cost of the 8th, and then keep dropping till the cost is no higher then the research cost of the most expensive regular research spell. Now the fun begins!

Imagine the Power your gaining, the spells you're gaining access to, by your 8th bonus pick you've probably gotten all the books from one school, by 14, you've probably picked up all the best channeler abilities, by 24 [they are getting cheaper, and your getting more powerful, you might even be getting one every two-three turns at this point] you've got 2 schools mastered, and are researching 2-3 regular spells a TURN.

Eventually you gain access to channeler picks that aren't available at the beginning of that game 'multi summoning, ' Any summoning spell you cast summons 5 copies of the creature, you can summon them to any square you control on the map, rather then just your home town. ' Spell maintenance inversion' any spell that normally costs you energy/essence to maintain GIVES YOU energy/essence to spend each turn.

Imagine having ALL the spells of the game available to you, + new ones, Imagine casting any number of spells in a turn, Just to see what they do. Imagine counter spelling all the other channelers EVERYTHING in one supper spell, all blessings, buffs, all gone. Casting game changing spells, global enchantments that normally take 10- 15 turns to cast, TWO AT A TIME. THE POWER!!!

Soon you've researched everything, and actually find the 'win by mastering magic spell' which you can cast, or just drop a rock the size of new Zealand on every opposing town, in one turn. Whichever suits you.

Want something similar for concurring the world by force? How about having towns surrender to you as your troops come over their horizon? no fighting, just they see you they surrender. unless they have a hero of the enemy garrisoned in the town, or the opposing mage. who you walk over. Every turn Mercenaries offer to join your cause, each turn at lower and lower rates hoping to join the winning team and ride the victor to the spoils. Even top level heroes from enemy teams defect to join you as your strength rises far above your opponents. Neutral AIs beg to merge before they get trampled beneath your feet. Your troops march faster and farther per turn (as any locals eagerly show and explain all the local shortcuts/ lend you fresh horses who cares what excuses)

The trick too all of this is that the game has to detect or be preprogrammed to know you're a defacto winner, At the same point when you normally would cast the game over spell, or stop paying attention to your cities and towns just spend every turn moving your army as far as you can killing anything that gets in your way and hitting turn because you can no longer loose. Only after you've 'all but officially won' should ANY of these effects begin to take place. But all of these should snowball, causing you to get stronger and stronger by the turn super-exponentially. Once you pass the threshold it becomes hard to loose, once you're any bit beyond it you would seriously have to try to loose. THAT is power, THAT is mastery. THAT is winning a game!!

Is dreaming of casting a spell turning all opposing farms into billowing plumes of smoke and fire, with the snap of a finger.

Just call me Q.

See you, out there.

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Sounds good. Of course, this spell should give you infinite mana and personal immortality, just to rub it in.

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This is the kind of stuff I like...

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This is one of those things that would be great if done well, but I don't see how it can be done well. This idea as formulated relies on the assumption that once you reach a certain point in magic research, you are guaranteed to win. But that is most definitely not the case in general. It might be true once in a while just by coincidence - it might even be true more often than not with careful planning from the devs; but there will definitely be cases where reaching that point in tech will actually turn the game around, not just make the steamroller phase faster and more fun.

That's the only thing that worries me, but if someone figures out how to avoid that, then I'd love something like this.

Actually, I just reread your post and I might be misunderstanding your suggestion. Do you mean to replace the "Spell of Making" (Elemental's equivalent to MoM's Spell of Mastery) with this, or in addition to it? If you meant in addition to it, then my point above still stands. If you meant to replace it, that is a different matter entirely. And in that case I'd like to have the option to press the "You Win" button, or to continue and for your suggestion to take effect. The reason for this is that I don't want so-called victory conditions to merely give you insane bonuses to make conquest victory easier. It would make conquest the only way to win, and other "victory conditions" just different paths to take to make conquest easier, and I really don't like that.

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Do you mean to replace the "Spell of Making" (Elemental's equivalent to MoM's Spell of Mastery) with this, or in addition to it?

Me and everybody else assumed that he meant "replace", and he didn't correct us, so I am still assuming replace. I most definately agree with all of your statements, having expressed many of them myself. However, I would VERY much like to knwo where you got ahold of thqat info on the "spell of making"!

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Quoting Scoutdog,

reply 4

However, I would VERY much like to knwo where you got ahold of thqat info on the "spell of making"!

From the FAQ dev thread:

Players can win the game in a variety of ways including achieving the spell of making, completing the quest of mastery, diplomatic victory as well as the traditional military conquest means of victory.

Frogboy has mentioned it before offhand in other threads, too, I think, but I don't remember where.

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Quoting pigeonpigeon,

Soon you've researched everything, and actually find the 'win by mastering magic spell' which you can cast, or just drop a rock the size of new Zealand on every opposing town, in one turn. Whichever suits you.

Sounds good to me. The whole idea is the actual "I win" button is pushed alot further back. It's still there. You just may never need it because you reach a point where you're capable of annihilating your foes easily. Most of them will prob just surrender.

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Goodmorning all,

Yes i was thinking of replaceing rather then being instead of. As i see it having researched the 10th 'pick' you've won the game [incoperating it with the spell of making idea it would be the spell of making research, or the 11th would be activated by casting the spell of making]. Idealy the game would still regristare you as having won by magic research, even if you happend to use that magic to turn your opponents into flies and feed them to your pet lizard, you still WON by magic.

as i see it now, to not undo what frogboy said, you cast the spell of making, given the credits, scored, and then offered an option to really finish the game [probably not for score, but just to finish it (i don't know about you, but winning by tech/research always feals incomplete to me. If i am now all powerful, let me BE ALL POWERFUL! . . . you know?)] unlike the civilazation series you win by lanching the space ship and choose to continue playing and nothing new happens, or SMAC you merge with the planet... but don't have swarms of mind worms at your beckon call to elliminate the dissenters.

In short, winning should always have the oppotunity to be epic. Power grows exponetially and all that.

Best wishes all.

Robbie Price.

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Quoting Robbie.Price,

reply 7

as i see it now, to not undo what frogboy said, you cast the spell of making, given the credits, scored, and then offered an option to really finish the game [probably not for score, but just to finish it (i don't know about you, but winning by tech/research always feals incomplete to me. If i am now all powerful, let me BE ALL POWERFUL! . . . you know?)]

That, I could go for. If you win in such a way that enemies (or even any other players at all) are still around, being able to continue playing after the victory screen with some insanely huge bonus appropriate to your victory type would be lots of fun.

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Yeah. Besides: being a god is fun!

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I read this idea and really liked the sound of it - plus we need not assume that exponential growth of power means you immediately win the game. If two players got to this stage simultaneously it would be interesting. Endgame tension is to die for...

Agree that victory by research feels incomplete. (Tho in MOM's day, this kind of multiple victory condition was thrillingly advanced).

I'd like it if Victory was based around Having to Banish Competing Channellers to the Void, MOM style. This would mean that:

a) No need for steamroller conquest victory - it can be a lot more targeted. Your research is aimed (like the suggestion above) at building capabilities that let you 'get at' your opponent's channellers, rather than just having to take over their part of the pitch

Potential for Chess-like check-mate complexity in the endgame (and corresponding to-and-fro power balance)

c) Drama - How much fun was it banishing an opponent Wizard in MOM (particularly if they were spell-of-masterying). Personally, I'd like the research-victory-spell just to give the capability to instantly summon an opponent channeller to the Astral plane battlefield (or other mystical equivalent, like the void), where we are forced to duke it out with the best troops from our empire...... ---- And if I lose, I Lose the Game too, even if my empire was vast and his was a tiny principality....

Wouldn't that last throw of the dice make matters interesting? 'Course, once the opponents have seen that someone has the endgame-spell, they'd start stuffing their inventories with strong monsters and up-the-sleeve last ditch spells, just waiting for the axe to fall.... And even having the spell does not ensure victory.

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That sort of spell would be nice for the endgamed, but it is not a "victory" spell.

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Quoting WildBoarPie,

reply 10

Agree that victory by research feels incomplete. (Tho in MOM's day, this kind of multiple victory condition was thrillingly advanced).

I totally disagree. I love non-conquest victory conditions and I'll be extraordinarily disappointed if they just become the hated step-children of victory conditions compared to conquest. I don't want to always be forced to destroy all my opponents - be that their entire kingdoms or just their channeler. I want to be able to win be forming a universal alliance, by researching the Spell of Making and thus gain total control of the world, etc.

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-AoE (original and best) A Wonder becomes instantly visible to other players, so they try to destroy it...
-MoM Start casting Mastery and everyone finds out...
-Populous - Armageddon Victory: Just the same as my suggestion above, allows a player to 'force' a soon-to-be endgame - but you have to be sure you're stronger before you call it... - and it has drama.... - You don't just click it and win.

So I'd say:
- Alternative Victory Conditions - 'Yay!'
- Pure Research 'I Win' button - 'Nooooo... !'

Anyhow, banishing opponents would just be the same as a conquest wipe-out :- it doesn't exclude alternative paths.

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Quoting WildBoarPie,

reply 13

Hmmmm... I wasn't attempting to -exclude- 'Non-Conquest' victory conditions, I too am a big fan of several alternative paths to victory. But the path to Victory by pure research is tricky 'cos a victory condition, by definition, must allow opponents to 'oppose' it. eg:

-AoE (original and best) A Wonder becomes instantly visible to other players, so they try to destroy it...
-MoM Start casting Mastery and everyone finds out...
-Populous - Armageddon Victory: Just the same as my suggestion above, allows a player to 'force' a soon-to-be endgame - but you have to be sure you're stronger before you call it... - and it has drama.... - You don't just click it and win.

So I'd say:
- Alternative Victory Conditions - 'Yay!'
- Pure Research 'I Win' button - 'Nooooo... !'

Anyhow, banishing opponents would just be the same as a conquest wipe-out :- it doesn't exclude alternative paths.

The 'research' victory condition in Elemental is along the same lines as MoM's Spell of Mastery. In Elemental it's called the Spell of Making. A 'mundane' tech research victory wouldn't make sense IMO.

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Speaking of tense end-games and alternative end-games, has anyone else ever played Warlords Battlecry, Skirmish option with a 'Temporary' hero, multiple sides and the 'Assassinate' victory condition?

Damn, I like that game too much.

.... But it's a good other example where you win by going after your opponent's hero/channeler, rather than having to do the full slog of conquest.

Just like Chess (Worship the daddy of TBS...)

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kyogre12

Join Date 07/2008

+100

Personally, I think that any sort of research victory should take a huge amount of time to complete, no matter how much +research speed ability you have. What I didn't like about the technological victory in GalCivII was that by the time anyone started researching it, they probably have very fast research, so you would get the warning that they started, then 30 turns later they won, and there was nothing you could to to stop it because it took 28 turns to get to their planets.

Research victory should give sufficiant warning that even if you are on opposite sides of a huge map, you can still get your army there and be able to pummel them into submission before the research is done.

My $0.02

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What you describe is also my experience of MOM, when I cast the spell of Mastery - computer opponents struggle to beat me when I can choose the time limit.

I'd expect the same in similar games such as Civ and GalCiv (not played them in depth) where you get to set a research 'slider' of some sort. Though no disrespect - both great games.

- In AoE the time limit on a Wonder was fixed, and by AoK the AI could be remarkably tenacious in taking down a player-built wonder (anyone remember the siege of Acre scenario?). Though that was real time .

Which is why, as above (original topic and my suggestion), I'd like the research to 'changes the rules' to force/escalate the endgame in an exciting way (and get away from micro-managed conquest) - but does not force victory, per se - In all the examples discussed (Galciv, Civ, MoM, AoE &c), you reach the end of a research tree and can then force victory... you might as well be playing a city-builder in some scenarios. I just think the end-game needs a bit more balance to make it escalated/challenging than some of those games achieved.

I wanna face my nemesis for a final duel in the screaming void, Not brush of my dusty tomes and then send them back to the library....

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But that's not a technology victory. That is a mutant conquest victory. Your research ability has little to do with whether you win or lose...

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This is how it should be, IMO. You use several game elements (which can be advancing 'tools' provided by research) in combination to secure victory through complex moves.

Research in both RTS and TBS is just a mechanism for escalating the gameplay so that it is harder and harder for the protagonist's powerbases to remain 'balanced'. This has been said before, and better than I can here. The game starts 'balanced' and all our efforts as players are towards making them become 'unbalanced' in our favour.

The research provides the 'tools' - but even in the final use of them, I'd like to see the requirement for strategy.

I'm not even opposed to pure research victory as an alternative - provided there are then adequate means for opponents to 'oppose' your research (rather than a slow-burn but very secure, expensive turtle-style research victory). - I've noticed when playing MoM, I often don't even use some of the coolest most creative powerful spells, 'cos I'm in such a hurry to reach Mastery - victory handed over on a plate.

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I just don't like the idea of research victory being more dependant on heroes and essence-hoarding than actual research. Plus, there was always a certain thrill for me in watching your empire curmble while racing to complete those last, key techs.

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Quoting WildBoarPie,

reply 19

It does, sort of - It's just that rather than -forcing- victory, your research grants you the ability to set up the end-game, giving you an important strategic advantage over your opponents. I agree it's a mutant conquest victory.

This is how it should be, IMO. You use several game elements (which can be advancing 'tools' provided by research) in combination to secure victory through complex moves.

I couldn't disagree with you more. Forcing every game to end via conquest would get old fast for me. I tend to play my TBS games somewhat like an RPG - I like to give my characters and kingdom personalities and play things out like I think such people would actually do. Sometimes that involves not going to war, not trying to conquer the others. If I manage to cast a spell that gives me unchallengeable magical power, I want that to be my victory. I don't need to conquer anyone else because I am now invincible and can do whatever I want - whether that be to crush my enemies or ignore them for all eternity and keep to myself.

If you don't like such victory conditions, disable them.

Quoting WildBoarPie,

reply 19

That's not unmanageable to do, and I completely agree with you. In pretty much any game with technology victories, by the time other players get the warning it's too late for them to do anything about it. There are many ways of getting around that. The spell could take much longer to cast, your channeler could be completely absorbed by casting the spell, unable to move or defend himself. The game could even warn other people when a player starts researching the Spell of Making, which should take about as long to finish as actually casting it - that would make an enormous difference. Even if the player started casting it immediately after learning it, it would double the amount of time for other players to respond. And if any players respond quickly enough, before you actually start casting it, you might be forced to put off casting it at all until you can make sure your channeler will be safe.

Making magical/research victory conditions nothing more than stepping stones to a conquest victory because most games don't give early enough warning is silly.

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Goodmorning all

Ideally, for me, this wouldn't actually be a game ender, or a post game cleanup (yes i said that, but I've given it more thought)

I'm now thinking two 'win by magic' things. the first 'spell of Making' is as advertised, Huge spell, Huge research, learn it cast it, win. (play after the fact with some completely over the top bonuses if you want, for no score, just to clean up and for fun! >:- D)

A second, 'Process of Transcendence' like the researching /casting of the spell of making you opponents would be warned when you begin this process. The process is as I described above, leading slowly to a all powerful bonused to the 9's wizard, but leaves you in the game for a while before you really start to become overpowered. If the price of each additional skill point remained a constant, or dropped only very slowly, at the start. Your opponents would have time to muster themselves and declare you a true threat. and act appropriately. The great thing being that if you start the 'process of Transcendence' and then a second enemy does you'll be in for a very long very epic ride to a cataclysmic victor condition [or mutual lost, if you and your foe manage to trigger a global meltdown say by using too much combined spell power in one turn/or over a few turns, burning out the world]. The point being that 'response time' is always retained.

Oh and to make it sane starting the process to transcendence would prevent you from researching and casting the 'spell of making' 2/3'rs of the way into the process.

[it could even work out that somebody is just coming into the truly exponential phase of the process of transcendence and somebody finishes the spell of making, heading them off at the pass.]

You then have a choice, learn and cast the spell that leaves my channeler paralyzed for several turns, but win sooner, hoping to finish before they can crush me. . . or follow the path that pays of in strength incrementally so i can build strength and still use my wizard to defend myself until I'm stronger then all the weaklings who dare to challenge me?

I think the key factor should be that the spell(s) size(s) should take longer to research and cast, proportional to the size of the map. Casting a global spell on a small map takes a small(er) amount of time/ energy, then weaving that same spell over a world map of 10 times the surface area. calibrated against the length of time a typical endgame unit takes to run across the map corner to corner, unaided. The spell of mending would take less, 3 or 4 times the crossing time, the possess of transcendence would take about 8 times the crossing time to research the second 10 picks [or however many is needed that you start to see overwhelming raw magical power to the degree that any non transcending faction just can't keep up. ]

I, for one, and not arguing against the existence of non-conquest victories, winning by alliance, winning by council, winning by artifact/quest, 'ell give me a winning by espionage. I'll take them all.

My idea is that at least ONE of the ways of winning should be 'win by transcendence' where you actually play out the processes of becoming truly transcendent. including the having fun playing god part just before the credits.

A corollary to that is that all the other ways of winning should have the option of returning to the map post victory to clear up loose ends [if there are any]. Preferably where each type of victory came with a unique and concrete bonus that rendered the steamrolling phase quick (~10 turns) and a whole lot of fun.

ex. win by quest, top hero gets an artifact that grants
1. Nearly unlimited teleportation /turn
2. Any and all damage inflicted on this hero reduced to 0, regardless of form or cause, Total immunity to all forms of paralysis,sudden death, assorted negative afflictions.
3. Unreasonable buff to damage.
4. total and unquestioning servitude to controlling channeler [no chance that this newly formed god of war will betray you]

Each win has such a post victory cleanup bonus.

That's my view,

Best wishes all, take care.
Robbie Price

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