Will all magic require use of Essence?

By on June 3, 2009 5:52:05 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Ynglaur

Join Date 05/2006
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If Essence is finite and cannot be replenished by any means, then it seems that using it for "permanent" works is by nature the most advantageous use, vs. more "banal" utilities such as shooting off fireballs in battles.  Will some magic be useable without expending Essence?

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June 3, 2009 5:56:19 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yes and no.

Will all magic require use of Essence?: No.
Will some magic be usable without expending Essence?: Yes.

I hate to give such adamant answers, since we don't really know for sure, but that's the general gist of what we've been able to assume or piece together. It's highly unlikely that the bulk of 'regular' magic will require essence.

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June 3, 2009 6:11:14 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

But we do know for sure.  Look  at the dev journal about spells here.  http://forums.elementalgame.com/352520

 

Not all spells take essense. 

I think it was directly stated in another dev post somewhere, but I'm not sure where that is.

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June 3, 2009 6:38:49 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting landisaurus,
But we do know for sure.  Look  at the dev journal about spells here. http://forums.elementalgame.com/352520

Not all spells take essense. 

I think it was directly stated in another dev post somewhere, but I'm not sure where that is.

Thank's for the pickup.

The relevant post from the thread:

Quoting BoogieBac,
[...]

Not all spells cost essence, just the ones where you're 'creating' something or 'imbueing' something (at least from my understanding). You'll have MANY spells to cast that dont sap your essence, but the ones that do will be considerably more potent.

[...]

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June 4, 2009 12:25:14 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

I was under the impression that Essense will be required for founding/building new cities (by making targetted spots of land habitable again).  IF that is the case, the game will have a lot of strategy in terms of deciding whether to keep Essense to buff your Channeler, give Essense out to buff your servants, or use Essense to increase the number of cities under your control.

 

Weeeee, I speed built 20 cities....at which point the unstoppable Player/Channeler who hoarded his Essense walks in and takes them from me.

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June 4, 2009 2:42:13 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Paradoxnt,
I was under the impression that Essense will be required for founding/building new cities (by making targetted spots of land habitable again).  IF that is the case, the game will have a lot of strategy in terms of deciding whether to keep Essense to buff your Channeler, give Essense out to buff your servants, or use Essense to increase the number of cities under your control.

 

Weeeee, I speed built 20 cities....at which point the unstoppable Player/Channeler who hoarded his Essense walks in and takes them from me.

Yeah that's something that bothers me a lot. I,m trying to figure out what kind of strategy to use. To keep or spend Essence. I guess it will depend on how we can defend against a fully charged  Channeler. The way I see it if Channeler 1 creates a few towns and becomes to weak to defend against channeler 2 who as not created any towns, I don't want Channeler one to just loose his towns because the other guy walks in and steals everything. Seems to me this would be poor way to do things.

 

Then again if creating cities gives you the possibility to defend efficiently against another fully charged Channler then you have a real nice game going.

 

Otherwise I would just sit back and wait for my apponent to create a few towns. Then I would walk in kick him out on his ass and then I would have his towns and still be full of essence. I hope it won't work this way.

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June 4, 2009 3:28:38 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Paradoxnt,
[...]
Weeeee, I speed built 20 cities....at which point the unstoppable Player/Channeler who hoarded his Essense walks in and takes them from me.
I'm not sure if you're sarcastic. I actually read it as sarcastic the first time around, but then Solam steps in all serious.

Doesn't it occur to people that if you were to have 20 cities, you'd have 20 cities more than the channeler that has hoarded his essence? 20 cities, with all the economy and the units that come with it, to just throw away at the channeler that is attacking.

And trying to decide what tactic you'll use already is impossible. You'll have to have at least a tentative appreciation of what a good ratio is going to be. Anyone that throws away all his essence to build cities, just like one that hoards ALL of his essence, will no doubt ultimately fail if the enemy calls him on it.

And for that, you should pay the price of loosing.

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June 4, 2009 3:35:24 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Thanks landisaurus!  That's precisely what I was looking for.

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June 4, 2009 4:59:25 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Sorry if I seemed all serious. It's only a thought that came in and as you said it's not set in stone. What makes me think a channeler full of Essence is dangerous is that Frogboy had said that he expect the main char to be like Sauron, and sauron was kicking ass against the entire army for a while. Until he got unlucky...

 

Good post though.

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June 4, 2009 6:33:37 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Luckmann,
Quoting Paradoxnt, reply 4[...]
I'm not sure if you're sarcastic. I actually read it as sarcastic the first time around, but then Solam steps in all serious.

Doesn't it occur to people that if you were to have 20 cities, you'd have 20 cities more than the channeler that has hoarded his essence? 20 cities, with all the economy and the units that come with it, to just throw away at the channeler that is attacking.

And trying to decide what tactic you'll use already is impossible. You'll have to have at least a tentative appreciation of what a good ratio is going to be. Anyone that throws away all his essence to build cities, just like one that hoards ALL of his essence, will no doubt ultimately fail if the enemy calls him on it.

And for that, you should pay the price of loosing.

 

Traditionally in these type of games, towns have very poor defenses when they're first built. Early game you won't have many people, and you won't have much of an army. My worry here is a channeler rush strategy on small maps, where you charge the other guy ASAP before his towns can get going.

On a bigger map it'd take so much longer to get there that by time you do the towns have grown and have actual defenses. Though I guess it also all depends on how much stronger your channeler grows as the game goes on.

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June 4, 2009 8:27:51 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Hi Luckmann, I was only 'sorta' sarcastic there.  I meant it as 'wouldn't it suck if by using essence to make cities you became an easy take over target for a Channeler who hoarded their essence'.

 

Of course, we are looking for a balance that makes several approaches to essence management feasible....but each choice with it's own pros/cons.

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June 5, 2009 4:19:49 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I really hope they change this. If everyday spells cost essence (which, from what I understand, is a resource that is gone for good when you use some of it) Then It seems like people who want a channeler that is as powerful as possible will not hardly ever cast spells....which seems counter-intuitive to me. Now this depends on how you get more essence, as they haven't specified that yet (pressumably you more essence each time you level up or something like that). Also, This seems like it makes the pressence of mana pointless doesn't it?

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June 5, 2009 4:51:40 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yes, somthing that keeps us from casting spells would be a HUUUUUGE disappointment in my eyes: all those animations are going to go to waste. Maybe certain spells will require you to have X amount of essance, but not actually reduce your amount when used.

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June 5, 2009 6:06:49 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting StoweMobile,
I really hope they change this. If everyday spells cost essence (which, from what I understand, is a resource that is gone for good when you use some of it) Then It seems like people who want a channeler that is as powerful as possible will not hardly ever cast spells....which seems counter-intuitive to me. Now this depends on how you get more essence, as they haven't specified that yet (pressumably you more essence each time you level up or something like that). Also, This seems like it makes the pressence of mana pointless doesn't it?
Read up.

As has been said numerous times, the absolute vast majority of spells - possibly all 'normal' spells (those that doesn't actually imbue.. 'stuff') will not require essence at all.

Quoting Scoutdog,
Yes, somthing that keeps us from casting spells would be a HUUUUUGE disappointment in my eyes: all those animations are going to go to waste. Maybe certain spells will require you to have X amount of essance, but not actually reduce your amount when used.
Your supply of mana will no doubt restrict you from casting spells as you see fit.

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June 5, 2009 6:28:36 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

But not unreasonbly, and it would come back.

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June 5, 2009 9:01:02 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Ok, I could easily be wrong...that said:

 

There is 'mana' for standard spells that is a constant income from owning shards.

 

There is 'essense' that your Channeler gains/unlocks as he/she levels up (or gains on quests).  This essense is finite.  It is used for buffing your Channeler, buffing your servants/buildings/items, and possibly for buffing spells (or for casting unique spells).

 

Hmmmmm, maybe 'The Spell of Return' could cost Essense instead of mana to cast.....sorry wrong topic but just thought of it while typing this.

 

Anyway, just wanted to say I fully support the idea of Essense being finite (gained only from leveling and quests).

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June 6, 2009 1:11:07 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Paradoxnt,
Ok, I could easily be wrong...that said:

There is 'mana' for standard spells that is a constant income from owning shards.

There is 'essense' that your Channeler gains/unlocks as he/she levels up (or gains on quests).  This essense is finite.  It is used for buffing your Channeler, buffing your servants/buildings/items, and possibly for buffing spells (or for casting unique spells).

[...]

That is the basic gist as I understand it.
It also happens to be the exact way that I'd want it to work.

Mana for spells, Essence for (permanent) imbuing, essence finite, mana comparatively abundant.

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June 6, 2009 1:23:01 AM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Ooops, forgot to mention that Essence also seems to be used for making new towns as well.

 

Looks like Luckmann and I see things the same way in regards to the Essence game concept.  Good Stuff!

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June 6, 2009 1:32:15 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Paradoxnt,
Ooops, forgot to mention that Essence also seems to be used for making new towns as well.
[...]
I considered that part of the 'imbuing'. All the land in the world is supposedly devestated and dead after the cataclysm, and requires the channeler to imbue it with life.

I'm sure you already knew that. Just wanted to recap.

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June 6, 2009 10:33:14 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting Luckmann,



Quoting Paradoxnt,
reply 4
[...]
Weeeee, I speed built 20 cities....at which point the unstoppable Player/Channeler who hoarded his Essense walks in and takes them from me.I'm not sure if you're sarcastic. I actually read it as sarcastic the first time around, but then Solam steps in all serious.


Doesn't it occur to people that if you were to have 20 cities, you'd have 20 cities more than the channeler that has hoarded his essence? 20 cities, with all the economy and the units that come with it, to just throw away at the channeler that is attacking.

And trying to decide what tactic you'll use already is impossible. You'll have to have at least a tentative appreciation of what a good ratio is going to be. Anyone that throws away all his essence to build cities, just like one that hoards ALL of his essence, will no doubt ultimately fail if the enemy calls him on it.

And for that, you should pay the price of loosing.

The problem there then being that the maximum value at both ends becomes minimum. It forces the game into a middle of the road play, some towns some essence and that's bogus as well. The balance should come that if someone expends all their essence on towns they should be just as powerful as the player who hoards all of his essence.

I've never been much of a fan of POWERFUL wizards or characters/heroes in these games anyway. What they end up doing is if you lose your main POWER character the game is OVER. Much like Heroes of Might & Magic, lose that level 13 hero and it's all over for you.

I'd rather not see the heroes/wizards specifically get experience or gain levels. What I would rather see is the power be determined by artifacts discovered or artifacts built/forged. This way if you do lose a hero or wizard you still have opportunities to build another one back up by mfg new artifacts or discovering new or better ones in REGENERATING dungeons/crypts and other explorable areas.

Too many of these games MOM included have a definite amount of ability to gain experience or item loot in the explorable areas. I propose that after a number of turns after some dungeon/crypt etc have been cleared that they regen with new creatures and new items, sometimes harder sometimes easier but never the same thing twice.

I'd rather see battles won by strategy & tactics than by MY hero is greater than your hero so you lose.

I quit playing HOMM and AOW and all the rest because of that stupid experience and leveling ability of heroes to make them so overpowering that they were the main role and purpose of playing instead of a fantasy war or adventure.

Read some of your fantasy novels you don't see any of those characters getting so powerful that if one was lost like FLINT in War of the Lance that there was no hope of the good guys winning. Only really Raistalin (sp) gained more power during the story, but, still he wasn't powerful enough to win the war for their side.

It should take the WHOLE team, the WHOLE army, the WHOLE faction to win not just one overly powerful character.

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June 6, 2009 11:27:47 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting psychoravin,
...It should take the WHOLE team, the WHOLE army, the WHOLE faction to win not just one overly powerful character.

I can't quickly find the quote, but I'm pretty sure that the devs are aiming to let us have our cake and eat it too. Something about a grand three-way fight between an essence hoarder (the superpowerful spellcaster you don't want to see), a 'small' force with a crew of strong champions, and a truly massive at-the-gates-of-Morder-style force. With the real differentiator being player skill, not a 'hard-coded' advantage for one general strategy over another. Or something like that.

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June 6, 2009 1:04:01 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Weeeee, I speed built 20 cities....at which point the unstoppable Player/Channeler who hoarded his Essense walks in and takes them from me.

I am wondering how you are getting spells in Elemental. It would be strange that having lots of cities don't help you to gain spell very fastly ...

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June 6, 2009 3:15:26 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

from what I understand spells have to be researched, which seems like it would be speed up by having lots of cities...though it has been said that you can be powerful/competitive without alot of territory, so maybe the cost to research depends on your number of cities. Luckmann

 --and to Luckmann, I have read up, it's just that 2 of the four spells showed in that journal required essence...and they seemd fairly insignificant. Thus I was deducing that is thoes cost a "small amout" of essence then the more powerful spells will cost too much to be worth cast the player wants to horde his essence...

p.s. I don't know why this hyperlinked, and I can't get it to unlink......

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June 7, 2009 3:05:54 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting psychoravin,

I've never been much of a fan of POWERFUL wizards or characters/heroes in these games anyway. What they end up doing is if you lose your main POWER character the game is OVER.

Well the intention for this game is that you lose if your channeler dies. So if you hoard all your essence for your channeler to make a "POWERFUL wizard", and then lose him you literally lose. Unlike where in HoMM where it tries to pretend the game isn't over yet.

Quoting psychoravin,
I'd rather not see the heroes/wizards specifically get experience or gain levels. What I would rather see is the power be determined by artifacts discovered or artifacts built/forged. This way if you do lose a hero or wizard you still have opportunities to build another one back up by mfg new artifacts or discovering new or better ones in REGENERATING dungeons/crypts and other explorable areas.

Too many of these games MOM included have a definite amount of ability to gain experience or item loot in the explorable areas. I propose that after a number of turns after some dungeon/crypt etc have been cleared that they regen with new creatures and new items, sometimes harder sometimes easier but never the same thing twice.

But this is built off of a potentially flawed assumption. You assume that the world of Elemental will be as static as in most other games. But from the little snippets of information we've been given by the devs, the world will probably never be free of wandering monsters, dungeons will regenerate, etc. If you invest a lot in a champion and then lose him, you should be set back. This can be done without leading to HoMM-like situations - in HoMM it happened because having one super-hero was by far the best strategy. All they have to do here is make it just as viable to have more lesser heroes. Then it's the player's choice whether to put all his eggs in one basket or to spread them out, and thus it becomes a strategic decision.

Quoting psychoravin,
I'd rather see battles won by strategy & tactics than by MY hero is greater than your hero so you lose.

But in this game, whether or not to concentrate on heroes at all, and then how powerful to make them, is probably going to be a strategic decision. They've already told us that their intention is to give the player many viable ways to play the game - including to forego heroes, or to rely almost entirely on them. For two roughly equal players, if one has a more powerful hero than the other, then the other likely has something to make up for it. At least, that's the goal.

Quoting psychoravin,
Read some of your fantasy novels you don't see any of those characters getting so powerful that if one was lost like FLINT in War of the Lance that there was no hope of the good guys winning. Only really Raistalin (sp) gained more power during the story, but, still he wasn't powerful enough to win the war for their side.

There are so many examples of stories that rely on an individual character's survival it's not even funny. The Sword of Truth is the first that comes to mind. It's there in LoTR is a few manifestations as well (if Frodo died it'd have been over - without Gandalf Sauron would've won, too). The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant. Give me more time and I'm sure I can think of many more.

Quoting psychoravin,
It should take the WHOLE team, the WHOLE army, the WHOLE faction to win not just one overly powerful character.

But if a player chooses to make his WHOLE team his one overly powerful channeler, why not? That is his whole team. He'd probably have some small army to back him up, but why prevent people from making that choice? As long as making your channeler incredibly powerful is no more viable a strategy than building up an actual army or heroes, there is nothing wrong with that.

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June 7, 2009 4:32:37 PM from Stardock Forums Stardock Forums

Agreed PigeonPigeon. 

 

I also fully support the idea that players should have several strategically viable options open to them.

 

Though, I do see where psychoravin is coming from in fearing a 1 super hero strategy trumping all other options (like HoMM).

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June 8, 2009 9:42:44 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

One trick will be to differentiate between the center of power, and the center of gravity.  Though in some cases the two are identical, in most cases they are not.  if the game can separate them, we'll have a very interesting time.  If not, we go from version to version of the "Stack of Doom": the only difference being the size of the stack (one Channeler vs. hordes of whatevers).

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