"Stargates"; Portals, Teleportation.

I'm not sure if I would want something like that. (I'm not saying no either)

I like the idea that making a huge army might not save your bottom. If you expand to fast or to much you can get burned. It's always been THE problem for most empires. Being big as advantages but it's also very hard to keep everything together.

So not having any gates would add strategy on how much do you really want to expand and HOW do you want to expand.

One the other hand having gates might prove to be interesting as well IF and only IF anybody can use them. Meaning Channeler (chan) 1 builds a gate inside his fortress and the exit is on the front line. Chan 1 looses the battle on the front line and Chan 2 uses the gate to invade. Now that, I like. A kind of balance. If chan 1 builds it and only chan 1 can use it I think it's over powered. There as to be a risk to building them. Akind to the Sliph in the Sword of truth novels from terry goodkind. You build a hightway but anybody can use them so you have to set guards on it at all times.

It's my 2 coppers worth anyway

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

I'm hoping for a full range of transportation magic, with permanent portals being a pretty high end big deal that would only be reasonable on ludicrous-sized maps where you have a war between factions that are months or more apart by normal travel. More common stuff would be for teleports by channelers or sufficiently powerful hero units (or magic items?)--moving a leader and associated units from A to B if the caster knows B well enough (or has some required focus object to help).

For transpo 'infrastructure' magic, I'd also really like some flying buildings and/or landmasses (I'm pretty sure this will be too much to ask from the 3D engine if the core map concept stays 2D or 2D plus just a little bit) and the ability to make modest islands mobile in oceans or great lakes (seems easier than flying stuff). For caster-centered stuff along those lines, I want my channeler to be able to lead her escort units up into the clouds for a quick skywalk over rough terrain, or turn us all briefly into river dolphins when we can't get sufficient boats, etc.

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If we can go anywhere anytime what's the point of having a big map? It seems to me the only reason to have one is for the ressources.

I want to go back home cast spell.

I need to get to the frontlines cast spell.

I want my entire army in one place... cast spell.

What's the point? Maybe I just don't see it but that's how I would feel. There is no point to having a big map. no dissavantage.

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Wintersong

Join Date 07/2006

+235

Quoting Solam,

reply 3

If we can go anywhere anytime what's the point of having a big map? It seems to me the only reason to have one is for the ressources.

I want to go back home cast spell.

I need to get to the frontlines cast spell.

I want my entire army in one place... cast spell.

What's the point? Maybe I just don't see it but that's how I would feel. There is no point to having a big map. no dissavantage.

If in the end game my channeler can use Populus-like magic, why not uber teletransportation? It doesn't need to be cheap as the cost could scalate with the size of the army.

Some kind of magic transportation would be nice as loong as it's, obviously, balanced. That is, it doesn't have unlimited range nor a too long range; cost scalate to the number of units to transport; it's Water magic (sorry, maybe too much Legend of the Five Rings and Water shugenjas moving/accelerating Unicorn armies*); they are not easy spells to develop early on.

About "Stargates" (in our case just Portals or Gates, i suppose), they are fine as long as they function like Solam said in his first post. Also, then we should discuss about if the channeler can destroy a gate he controls or not.

*I like the magic system of that game and how each element serves a purpose that goes beyond the uber classic: fire missile, ice missile, earthquake, levitate,.. Water is healing and movement, while you could use air to spy on your enemies, earth to gain more resistance or strike to tainted creatures, or fire for pure destruction... And they have Void as the last element.

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The point of having "blinking" and shortrange teleportation spells is to create some cool tactical situations and cuz they're just plain fun. One of my favorite spells in Heroes of Might and Magic 4 was the Teleport spell because it was fun teleporting city defenders out of the walls and eating them with my waiting army :>

As for disadvantages, you're neglecting the COSTS and drawbacks of said spells. There's plenty of ways to balance these mechanics, should the developers decide to put them in. Cooldowns, casting times, debuffs (like unable to attack for 1 turn after teleporting), etc etc plenty of options.

As for the "stargate" ideas, I'm greatly in favour of these. I love having strategic teleportation spells. Think it's really fun and it also helps reduce the frustration of having a very large empire and not being able to respond quickly enough to an enemy invasion (or even just transporting civilians from one end to the other of your empire). Even Civilization 4 has a form of "teleport" in the form of Airlifting in the Modern age. I also very much like the idea of having the "stargate" usable by conquering enemies. It puts your empire in great risk should someone manage to take control of one of your stargates and be able to teleport troops directly into your nexus hub city. Thumbs up from me :>

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While I think there should be magical ways of transporting armies, I think they should be limited until maybe endgame. Endgame massive magic transportation capabilities could actually be a pretty elegant way to solve the clean-up problem once you've already pretty much won.

Quoting ,

quoting post

Their use is simple - to cut down on transports. The bigger a game is, the greater the odds that by the time your troops get anywhere near a front line, the front line have been moved, the war is over, or the units obsolete.

I think you're overlooking something though. When your empire is so big that that becomes a problem, you shouldn't be fueling your war effort from the other side of your nation. Sending fast units, or units that aren't likely to become obsolete by the time they arrive from the other side of your empire is one thing, but it should be difficult to muster the entire strength of a massive empire in one spot.

I'm not opposed to portals, though. If they're in, I think they should be very expensive to cast and should require magic upkeep. This way you have to be very strategic about where to open portals, and you have to pay to keep them open; but the significant initial cost means that if you plan on using the portal many times it probably won't be worth shutting it down and opening a new one when you're ready.

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I agree with the general sentiment of what's been said so far. I'm okay with insta-transport portals as long as they're very expensive and late-game. They should be so expensive, probably requiring continual "mana" upkeep from the channeler while active, that they would not be used casually. One thing I hated in MoM was the insta-travel roads. As others have pointed out, it completely removes all strategic considerations of army deployment. Just build one mega-stack, and it can be anywhere it needs to be, instantly. Boooo!

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I quite like the idea of the stargates, to balance them out you could have the mana upkeep per turn scale in proportion with the distance between the two gates, that way you'd have the advantage reflected in their cost and things wouldn't get out of hand. This would also potentially give some interesting tactical decisions; do you set up a gate right to the outer reaches of your empire? Or a more sustainable gate which only goes half that way? .. there's no reason the proportional upkeep cost would have to scale on a 1:1 ratio either.. so if you wanted to make really distant gates less likely you could have them cost more per unit of distance than closer ones

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I agree with having portals that are expensive and require a good amount of upkeep. I mean, they are pretty darn powerful and they save you from having to cast 'teleport dudes' every turn (I'm saying 'dude' a lot today... too much disgea I suspect) even though it would be from fixed points.

Part of the reason I want it is because not only does it make moving across the map MUCH easier (like when you have a city on a new continent and you are trying to expand. Ferrying your armies is such a pain, where I think you SHOULD be able to open a portal) but also I just like the idea.

'its all quite on the front. only a few scouts from the other side, but nothing major beyond what is ment to keep an eye on the war front. Suddenly there is a ripple in the magic of that area. The channeler new there would be trouble as he felt the fabric of space. Suddenly a great rift opens and the armies of the enemy start to pour out. The channeler tried what he could to muster a defence, but it came too fast and too sudden'

That just makes an awesome image in my head. I love the concept and I think that player should be able to do that if they want.

That also being said, AI should be able to recognize when an army is mustering on the other side of a portal near their home.

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Quoting pigeonpigeon,

reply 6

Their use is simple - to cut down on transports. The bigger a game is, the greater the odds that by the time your troops get anywhere near a front line, the front line have been moved, the war is over, or the units obsolete.

I think you're overlooking something though. When your empire is so big that that becomes a problem, you shouldn't be fueling your war effort from the other side of your nation. Sending fast units, or units that aren't likely to become obsolete by the time they arrive from the other side of your empire is one thing, but it should be difficult to muster the entire strength of a massive empire in one spot.
[...]

I wasn't overlooking it, per see. The thing is that a situation can quickly change. Let's say you conquer a city or three from the enemy, and suddently they are the front-line cities that should be where the troops are being fielded, but may lack the infrastructure to sufficiently do so for a very, very long time.

Another aspect is when there's cities that can construct rare units, or especially proficient units ("all units constructed here gets +5 HP") and suddently become obsolete. And sometimes it's just a case of someone like me, who likes really specialized cities and want all my cities, especially those "in the heartland of the empire" to remain useful the entire game, not just become gold-pressing cash-cows.

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Each time long distance travel is being used via spells or portals there should be a cost based on the overall strength and the number traveling to prevent RUSHERS from dominating the game with capital blitzes.

Example: If player_A starts near player_B then by rushing player_B kills and acquires his territory and resources I would prefer time to build my empire(player_C) and defend myself instead of some spell or structure providing a method of rushing me as well.

===========

OTHER THOUGHTS:

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Different types of long distance traveling should also be available such as:

1) Caverns through the Underworld (One Way or Two Way Travel)

A) Traveling to target location is unpredictable, but usually 50% faster. Percentage chance of being attacked by independent beings and things from the Underworld while traveling. The type of attack and number of enemies is completely unpredictable. Any number of units/champions can travel across.

2) Cloud Sailing (One Way Travel)

A) Traveling to target location is 70% faster. Able to view terrain and structures while traveling yet no option to stop or exit along the way. This type of travel sails above the clouds and thus immune to weather events. Strong flying creatures such as wyverns, dragons and air elementals are able to attack the traveling party via flight. Cloud sailing can transport any amount of units/champions yet the larger the size the greater the cost.

3) Flying Ships (Two Way Travel)

A) Traveling to target location is 40% faster. Able to view terrain, armies, and structures while traveling and ability to stop or exit along the way however requires more materials and magic to build. The flying ship travels far below the clouds and thus vunerable to weather conditions and some siege weapons. Any type of flying creatures can attack the crew on the flying ship while it's moving. The flying ship can be used endlessly once created yet has an upkeep to remain flying. Depending on the ship depends on the number of units and type of units.

4) Magic Carpets (Two Way Travel)

A) Traveling to target location is 50% faster. Able to view terrain, armies, and structures while traveling and ability to stop or exit along the way however requires magic to build. This type of travel sails above the clouds and thus immune to weather events. Strong flying creatures such as wyverns, dragons and air elementals are able to attack the traveling party via flight. The magic carpet can be used endlessly once created and has no upkeep. Only a few human sized units may travel for each magic carpet.

5) StarGates: (Two Way Travel)

A) Traveling to target location is instant, however this is a structure which can only be used during a full moon. The structure can work at anytime yet requires activation from a powerful magic item or a powerful magic spell. Any number of units/champions can travel across.

6) Currents in the Oceans: (Two Way Travel)

A) Traveling to target location is 30% faster. Unable to view any terrain, armies, ships or structures while traveling the currents at the bottom of the ocean thus also immune to current weather. Small percentage chance of being attacked by independent sea creatures or sea creatures from an enemy player. Units/Champions will each need some type of temporary or permanent water breathing magic or ability to use this type of transportation. Any number of units/champions can travel across.

7) Teleportation: (One Way or Two Way Travel)

A) Traveling to target location is instant yet target location cannot be unexplored on the map. Any number of units/champions can travel, but it will cost more magic depending on the number of units and their size.

+1

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Hmmm, I'd like to mention the Civ method: Instant transport from one city to another city. The recieving city can only recieve one unit per turn. The unit being transported uses it's turn "during transit" so to speak. I like this because it's simple and provides a decent level of balance (unless you have a large grouping of cities near each other). In addition though, it would be nice to have some one teleportation spells for your channeler. And of course, this doesn't discount other methods of travel such as roads and magic carpets and such.

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Another possible balance solution is that as the empire expands, transport, instant or expedited in some form, could only be done from one city to the next city in line towards the ineviatble Front, with a Cool down timer to represent power requirements.

Portals or whatever method, would require vast amounts of power that need to be built up, then are all expended in the transfer. Both ends are affected as well. This would prevent the Hop, then Hop then Hop. It would be Hop. Recharge. Hop etc.

To further slow matters, (to prevent possible Rushes as noted) only Cities of X Population size could even begin to think about having the power generation requirements to consider building a Teleport setup.

Not a big fan of teleport system in this game but if it is to be so, then it has to have very strict requirements built in to prevent balatant abuse by the devious among us.

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

I've been reading and thinking about all manner of magical transport mechanics nearly since the boards opened last November. I think now that I half-agree with John Hugues' aversion, but that's more or less for the first half for a decently long game on a larger map. I don't do short-game TBS, so I have nothing to say for those modes, but I still think that a few magical ways to move at least champion-level units and hopefully at least small armies should start becoming available around the mid-game. And something like the option to build costly magical infrastructure like the Ways in the Wheel of Time could be really interesting on both the strategic and story levels.

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I wanted to bring this up again, since I still would like to see it in the game.

Yeah. We've been bumping an awful lot of threads lately.

Necropost!

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Certainly. I would have considered resurecting this thread if we had been given any more information on how the world itself works. Like as it stands, we don't know any more about the situation. We barely have had a look at spells, we don't know how dungeons work into the world on a mechanical level, we don't know about alternate planes. There has not even been the slightest mention of teleportation or ways to move around other than walking.

But as always, hopefully newer members of the community will have something to add.

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Philocthetes

Join Date 10/2003

+153

Or perhaps there's a mysterious 'critical mass' for begging for a meaty dev journal on magic. Something analagous to that monster econ thread could concentrate all the sprawling whinges in just that one new monster and perhaps a small handful of thread-spawn.

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Good idea. I wish we would see a few screenies of the spellbook screens themselves: it would take minimal effort on the devs part, but we would get a TON of info.

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I think they're keeping some things secret because THEY'RE not sure how it's gonna be and don't want us to have false expectations.

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Well, Alpha's next week or something like that. And according to the 1 dev post we have that does talk about magic (to bad brad's FAQ didn't) we should get magic in the beta (and I'd assume alpha since they were working with it week ago). We'd have an idea by then at the very least.

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Elemental could use Teleporters as a physical independent building outside of towns... some good ideas in this thread.

The developers for Heroes_3 and AgeofWonders:ShadowMagic had the AI opponents "easily" using teleporters so I'm sure the Stardock developers can figure it out.

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NTJedi, that is one mean old necropost, right there.

That said, I still want portals. But I know that supposedly, the AI have a really hard time dealing with the usage of portals. Heroes 3 and AoW:SM isn't as "free form" as Elemental, so I suppose it'd be mitigated some by that.

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