Anyone else worried about combat?

By on November 14, 2008 12:05:40 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

NelsMonsterX

Join Date 10/2008
+7

After reading the few previews and interviews about Elemental on the net, I'm kinda worried that the tactical combat aspect of the game will be found lacking.  It seems as though Stardock wants this to be sim-heavy with combat thrown in almost just because.  Do you think combat will be an afterthought in this game?  Because if it is, I'm not sure I'll be interested.

Nelson

Locked Post 92 Replies
Search this post
Subscription Options


Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 14, 2008 2:10:46 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Is battle an afterthought in Rome: Total war? I think not.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 14, 2008 2:13:55 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

It probably won't be found too lacking in my opinion.  From what I know of Stardock and it's previous games, if they are going to implement a feature such as tactical battles, they would make sure that it actually has some substance.  Otherwise, they would probably not even waste the resources and just have combat done in a far more abstract way (like the planet invasions in galciv 2).  I don't expect it to be at the level of say Total War, but I think it will have some substance.

 

Personally, I would be pretty content with a system similar to Dominions 3 only with a bit more umph, and more importantly, the ability to control units (having to prescript everything, can get tedious, and is very limiting, hated shooting those fireballs right in the middle of my own troops, argh).

 

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 14, 2008 2:29:12 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

From the sceenshoots, it seems somewhat like the old MoM tacticals battles.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 14, 2008 3:27:50 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I am also worried.  This part that worries me is the real-time stuff.  I loved MOM's tactical battles.  I really want completely turn based battles to be at least an option.  It does seem like they are putting more weight on the strategic map then the tactical map.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 14, 2008 3:40:21 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Yep i'm for the strategic battles like Master of Magic or Age of wonders. Real time is more for casual gamers and we have enough casual games out there.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 14, 2008 4:05:07 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

A real time battle with pause is just like a turn based game. It just fasten it. Remember, you can pause. So you can't get a brain-ache.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 14, 2008 4:56:49 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

You have a point there vieuxchat, with a pause it would be nice...

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 14, 2008 5:09:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

From what I've read, the battles won't really be real-time.  They're more like simultaneous turns.  You queue up your orders, and your opponent queues up theirs.  Neither set of orders are actually executed as you issue them, they're just noted by the game.  Then the game executes both sets of orders simultaneously.  You can then pause, issue new orders, and so forth.

 

If you look at the combat screen shots, the positioning of units is grid-based.  A true real-time game wouldn't really work well on a grid-based system, so it appears it will still be a "This unit can move 3 spaces per turn" affair.  It's just that:

 

1) Both sides' orders are executed simultaneously, which gives it a more realistic and fluid feel.  Your units aren't running around doing things while your opponent's are sitting their frozen, just watching.

2) You can issue orders that will take more than one turn to execute, so you don't have to stop and issue orders each turn, you can just let the turns tick by until the time comes that you want to issue new orders, or alter the current ones.

 

At least that's my (completely uninformed) guess.

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 14, 2008 5:38:16 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

The impression I got was that you could compare it with the Knights of the Old Republic fighting system, well, the turn based part of it.

It looks like it is real-time, but the gameplay mechanics still are turn-based and you could pause the game anytime you want, ordering your troops what to do and then unpause the game or just give them orders on the run.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 14, 2008 7:29:44 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Ya, from what I can tell from the screen shots, the tacticle battles will be ateast partially turn based. What Im worried about is a similar situation you get in playing the Total War games. Sometimes you just don't want to play the battles. Either you know you would win, but auto-resolving gives unrealistic results, so you feel forced to play every battle. This happens especially in Rome in trying to auto-resolve when fighting against a roman faction as a non roman faction. I don't know if anyone else experienced this but if you tried to attack a roman family faction as a non roman and Auto resolve you would loose a CRAP load of troops...even if you would just wipe them out playing them yourself. It's like the computer weighted the roman units SO much more in it's calculations. Thus everytime you fight romans as non-romans you are forced to play the battle or lose an unreasonable number of troops. - Also in Medieval 2 if you had a large army you could auto-resolve seiges and barley lose any troops, which is also unrealistic. You could often easily wipe out a 800 man army or more if they are in a city just by auto resolving, at very lost cost to yourself.

So, the tacticle battles will be great if Stardock does two things.(In my opinion)

1. Make the battles fast enough so they don't slow down the pace of the game.(but long enough to be enjoyable)

2. Balance the auto-resolve sytem so people will A. Never feel forced to play a tacticle battle and B. Nevel feel like it would be better to auto-resolve most of the time.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 14, 2008 8:11:22 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

StoweMobile, will all due respect that I have for total war games (and i spent hundreds of hours on them and still love them) they should be renamed IA:Total Crap... on mini map and in combat AI is so lame, diplomacy and auto combat results... so I doubt that Stardock could do worse than them don't worry!

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 14, 2008 8:55:52 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I agree that the AI is quite predictable, and diplomacy is non-existent(...though I suppose that's why it's called Total war lol). Diplomacy is the most disapointing thing in the game for sure. Alliance were impossible to maintain, and your allies hardly ever help you. LoL does any one remeber in the earier patches of Rome that almost every time a nation was going to attack you, they would get a trade agreement from you a few turns before...like that was going to trick you into moving all your troops away form them LOL. Also the Computer controlled nations tend to gang up on the player. Thats one thing I loved about GalCiv2, the AI didn't differentiate the player from the other computer controled races.

-I have full confidence in Stardock though. I hope they come up with some awesome tacticle battles!

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 14, 2008 9:34:10 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I wish people would stop saying that real-time with pausing is the same as turn based, or that they want the battles to be resolved quickly.  The first is just not true, and the second devalues the tactical game.  Real-time with pausing is not the same as turned based.  It's a completely different feeling. Turn based allows, and enforces thinking about each move, which is what I want to be able to do, real-time with pausing has me sitting there hovering over the space bar.  For me, in MOM, I wanted to see and control what happened in most battles.  Having the option to autoresolve is fine, but not having turn based combat at all is a real handicap, and will make this game never live up to the standard of MOM.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 14, 2008 9:46:46 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting lamperti,
I wish people would stop saying that real-time with pausing is the same as turn based, or that they want the battles to be resolved quickly.  The first is just not true, and the second devalues the tactical game.  Real-time with pausing is not the same as turned based.  It's a completely different feeling. Turn based allows, and enforces thinking about each move, which is what I want to be able to do, real-time with pausing has me sitting there hovering over the space bar.  For me, in MOM, I wanted to see and control what happened in most battles.  Having the option to autoresolve is fine, but not having turn based combat at all is a real handicap, and will make this game never live up to the standard of MOM.

 

I agree 100 percent.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 14, 2008 10:07:00 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting lamperti,
I wish people would stop saying that real-time with pausing is the same as turn based, or that they want the battles to be resolved quickly.  The first is just not true, and the second devalues the tactical game.  Real-time with pausing is not the same as turned based.  It's a completely different feeling. Turn based allows, and enforces thinking about each move, which is what I want to be able to do, real-time with pausing has me sitting there hovering over the space bar.  For me, in MOM, I wanted to see and control what happened in most battles.  Having the option to autoresolve is fine, but not having turn based combat at all is a real handicap, and will make this game never live up to the standard of MOM.

I wish that people would stop saying that the tactical battles are going to be real time.  They are going to be continuous turns.  Continuous!  There is a difference!  [e digicons]^_^[/e]

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 14, 2008 10:21:16 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

@Iwarmonger

You make it sound like you understand what the phrase continuous turns means.  If so, please clarify.  I'm afraid I really don't.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 15, 2008 3:47:31 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Lamperti, have you ever played Knights of the Old republic? It is a system like that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBjxiUVJsu4

I think it's going to be like that. You can decide when to pause the game, give orders, or stack up orders and watch the game.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 15, 2008 4:00:08 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Quoting lamperti,
I wish people would stop saying that real-time with pausing is the same as turn based, or that they want the battles to be resolved quickly.  The first is just not true, and the second devalues the tactical game.  Real-time with pausing is not the same as turned based.  It's a completely different feeling. Turn based allows, and enforces thinking about each move, which is what I want to be able to do, real-time with pausing has me sitting there hovering over the space bar.  For me, in MOM, I wanted to see and control what happened in most battles.  Having the option to autoresolve is fine, but not having turn based combat at all is a real handicap, and will make this game never live up to the standard of MOM.

I totally disagree. Before going further I must say I prefer turn based to real time. But I also like real time. The problem with real time is you can't think of everything. But with pause you can. And I also like long battles. But you can have the same battles in a less time.

With continuous turns you still think about each move, but you don't have the perfect accuracy you have with turn based. And turn based are often just chess with a random factor. No place to "Arg i've gone too far" or things like that (unless you're too lazy to count hex and learn the weaknesses/defences of your enemy).

Why would you have to give 2 or 3 times the same order to a unit that is a bit far away from the heat of battle when you can just give the order once and let real time do the rest for you? When you're in need of thinking just pause.

 

Anyway I may be wrong, and so do you because we just don't have enough information about the tactical battles

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 15, 2008 10:26:35 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

@Shadowgandor,

 

Thanks for that link.  That looked like realtime with pausing, which I am familiar with.  It looks similar to Baldurs Gate, which I am playing right now.  I also just got MOM up and running, and played a bit last night.  I admit that the battles might seem slow to some, but I still really like the control it gives me.  What I don't like about the real-time stuff is that I have to be watching what is happening all over the battle field at the same time, thinking about when to pause, and thinking about whether or not my orders are completed.  It just feels messy.

That said, none of this discussion clarifies what continuous turns means.  Maybe a dev will chime in?

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 15, 2008 10:28:00 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I liked the one screen shot we saw of a battle scene. Maybe I will look at that again, and see if there is any information to be gleaned from it.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 15, 2008 11:13:53 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I just looked for that screen shot, and it's not in the media section.  It must have been in one of the reviews.  Anyone remember where it is?  It showed a battle grid that looked a lot like a MOM grid.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 15, 2008 11:18:00 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

I'm sure I don't know enough yet to even begin being worried (or stoked). If things end up working like the video Shadowgandor linked, I won't worry, I'll just hope that auto-resolve is OK. That is *way* too much mousework for me to enjoy for a tactical engagement.

And the demo makes me think that, pause buttons aside, the mode is too close to RTS because it would leave me feeling like the computer is pusing me, not me pushing the computer. (I'm thinking from a single-player POV here b/c I've not yet enjoyed any multiplayer stuff and am not sure I'll get into that side of Elemental.)

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 15, 2008 11:29:47 AM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Why should i be worried ? I know next to nothing except that it will be akin to Total War, so large scale real times battles as far as i know. There probably are some screenshots showing it off.. just hard to find them.. In any case they would be early representatives of something that can still change..

So this might just be me, but isn't this worrying about nothing ? Until they give us something solid, we really can't say anything about it.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 15, 2008 12:46:18 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

But what if there's an option for the game to auto-pause after every turn?  Perhaps it's best not to think of it as pausing at all.

 

1) Issue commands to your units.

2) Push the "Next Turn" button and watch them get executed (along with the commands your opponent issued).

3) Once the turn is done, you can then issue the next turn's orders.

 

The only difference between this and MoM would be that the orders get executed simultaneously.

 

I can't seem to find that screenshot of the grids in the tactical combat anywhere.  Perhaps they pulled it?

 

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
November 15, 2008 12:57:58 PM from Elemental Forums Elemental Forums

Total War battles are the perfect setting for the pause/real-time mechanic.  If TW battles were turn-based you would lose much of the realism that is the fun of those games.  But in a classic TBS game like MOM (which I've never played), AoW, HOMM, Disciples, etc. there is no realism factor since you are using little units that represent larger units.  In other words, it's the chess/miniature style battling that makes TBS games fun.  I think pausing to issue orders just feels more like a cheat.

Reason for Karma (Optional)
Successfully updated karma reason!
Stardock Forums v1.0.0.0    #108433  walnut3   Server Load Time: 00:00:00.0000172   Page Render Time: